Broadlands Hospital

[joy]

So, what's up with this? Sounds like it's a done deal from the news articles? I'm surprised I haven't seen an e-mail to the listserv on this. I'm not too keen on the idea, myself. Is there someone who is?

--Joy

--Joy

[greggbroadlands]

I think the hospital is a great idea. BUT, I really don't like the idea of the psychiatric facility in Broadlands. Why bring this facility here? Will the patients be walking around the neighborhoods? What kind of psychiatric patients will there be? According to what I've read this part of the hospital was suggested by the local leaders here in Loudoun County. I don't think this is a good idea.

-gregg

[SpongeBob]

I wonder what kind of avenues we would have to block it if we wanted to. As I understand it, the land is already zone-appropriate, HCA has already put a contract on the land, HCA has already closed the purchase of the additional hospital in Arlington which they're moving, the Board of Supervisors (including Chairman York) are publicly supporting it, as well as the developer. I think the only approval process left is the State Health Board approving the need for beds. I'm not sure what recourse residents would have if they wanted to oppose it. Maybe we'll find out more at the Community Coffee on the hospital on Thursday.

[seanonpond]

We are very unhappy about the prospect of a hospital down the street from us. When we moved here, we understood that professional office buildings would be put in at some point - that's a far cry from the noise and traffic that a hospital would attract. We are contacting all of our elected representatives to register our concerns and solicit their support.

[greggbroadlands]

I wouldn't look to the local elected representatives for help in blocking the hospital. They were the ones on the podium shaking hands and smiling.

[Twriter]

From what I've heard the facility will have 60 beds for psychiatric care, and 60+ beds for medical. The entrance will be on Belmont Ridge Road, and there will be a tree buffer between their property and the residential areas.

I still don't like it. Medical facilities means ambulances and sirens. Psychiatric facilities have patients wandering away occasionally, prompting local authorities to have to search for them. I'm not looking forward to either prospect.

If our property values decline as a result of this, I don't think we'll have any monetary recourse. How do you knock on their door and tell them they've just cost you X thousands of dollars?

[SpongeBob]

Community Coffee at Mill Run (I believe) on Thursday 7-8pm

[champney]

I would think another location would serve the residents of Loudoun County better. This location is only several miles from the existing hospital.

Add me to the "no" list for this idea.

[JCho]

I agree with champney, Loudoun County Hospital is only about 8 miles away from the proposed site. It sounds like the proposed hospital is supposed to benefit western Loudoun County. It sounds like it would be more appropriate for any new hospital to be located in Leesburg, or west of Leesburg.

Sounds like Arlington County doesn't want to lose their hospital (See Washington Post article from today).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47989-2002Jun26.html

And this excerpt sounds promising too...

The last time HCA went through the process, in 1998, it wanted to shut down Pentagon City Hospital and build a facility in Springfield. The Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia recommended against granting the company approval to do so, and Pentagon City Hospital was later closed.

In that case, said Dean Montgomery, staff director for the Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia, "it was a health corporation abandoning a poorer community for a more affluent one, and we found that not to be in the public interest."

Joy

[mnahouser]

I am also greatly opposed to this project. It will certainly lower our property values. Who would want to live that close to a hospital? Certainly not me.

From speaking with the developer, the entrances are planned for Broadlands Blvd, NOT Belmont Ridge Rd.

This is absolutely ridiculous that this project has gotten this far along without any input from the neighbors. I think our elected officials need to be un-elected.


Matthew Houser

[Broadlandslinda]

First the power lines, now a hospital. We are the smallest community in the Ashburn area, why put a 24 hour service facility in this community? World Com has large undeveloped tracts of land off the Loudoun Cty Pkwy, Bellmont Greene is also under development and would offer access to other communities along the Rt 50 corrider. Reston hospital is in a commercial area and there is no psychiatric facility there why should we accept this type of facility in a largly residential community?

[BroadlandsRez]

It sounds like the only way we can get rid of this Hospital is to Write to our State Representatives and the State Health Department, and tell them we don't want it. I've listed some addresses below. Unfortunately, I do not have a contact name/address for the State Health Dept at this time.

Supervisor Scott K. York
Chairman (At Large)
P.O. Box 7000
Leesburg, Virginia 20177-7000

chairmanyork@aol.com

Supervisor J. Drew Hiatt
Dulles District
P.O. Box 7000
Leesburg, Virginia 20177-7000
Office Phone: 703-777-0204
Fax: 703-777-0421
e-mail: jdhiatt@aol.com

Delegate Richard H. Black (32nd District)
General Assembly Building
P.O. Box 406, Office 517
Richmond, VA 23219
804-698-1032
Local Office
20978 Flatboat Court
Sterling, VA 20164
703-406-2951
e-mail: del_black@house.state.va.us

Senator William C. Mims (33rd District)
General Assembly Building
910 Capitol Street, Room 320
Richmond, VA 23219
804-698-7533
Local Office
P.O. Box 741
Leesburg, VA 20178
703-779-1888
e-mail: wma@i95.com

BroadlandsRez

Edited by - BroadlandsRez on 06/28/2002 07:57:01

[joy]

Here's the state contacts (from the web). As I understand it, there are basically 3 levels that get a say in this, with the final word being the State Health Commissioner. The local Health Systems Agency makes a recommendation after holding a public hearing. Their decision is due by Oct. 9. The staff of the Division of Certificate of Public Need makes a recommendation by Oct. 19. Then the State Commissioner makes the final decision based on the information received by Dec. 8.

Dean Montgomery, Executive Director
7245 Arlington Blvd, Suite 300
Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia
Falls Church, VA 22042
Voice (703) 573-3100
Fax (703) 573-1276
Email HSANV@aol.com

Erik O. Bodin, Director
Division of Certificate of Public Need
3600 West Broad Street, Suite 216
Richmond, Virginia 23323
Voice (804) 367-2126
Fax (804) 367-2206
Email ebodin@vdh.state.va.us
http://www.vdh.state.va.us/quality/COPN/default.htm

STATE HEALTH COMMISSIONER
Stroube, Robert B., M.D., M.P.H., Acting State Health Commissioner
1500 East Main Street, Room 214
Richmond, Virginia 23219
Voice 804-786-3561
FAX 804-786-4616






--Joy

[jen]

I think the hospital is a great idea. It will provide a service to the surrounding communities, provide employment for many people, plus take some of the wait out of emergency room care. I attended the meeting on Thursday evening and was amazed by the response. Yes, we may hear an occasional siren but this will only be if a person needs emergency care. Hmmm a little noise vs. a person life. I was also amazed by peoples perceptions of mental health. The danger is lack of proper mental health services. The people who would be treated at this hospital would not be "dangerous" to others. These are people who are depressed, anorexic, confused elderly etc. We need to educate the community to reduce the fear associated with mental illness. This hospital would hopefully provide this service along with other education classes for the public about various aspects of wellness. I think the hospital would be an asset to the community. I fully support the hospital moving to Broadlands.

[Azsweepay]

While I can see the benefit to having another Hospital in Loudoun County, I think that the county would be better served if it was moved west. I think an ideal place would be at the end of the Greenway, in Leesburg. That way you would have easy access from Rt.7, the Greenway, and Rt. 15.

Gregg Sandelli

[vweisenburg]

There has always been a 5 acre parcel set aside for a mental health facility since the development was originally zoned. My question to all of you is would you rather see a hospital with psych beds that are for “minor” psychiatric disorders such as anorexia, ADD, etc., or a transitional facility for psych patients that are deemed to be in recovery from more serious mental illnesses? We cannot prevent a mental health facility from being built in Broadlands.

I fully support a hospital here in our development and I urge those of you do as well to write or call our supervisor Drew Hiatt and tell him that you fully support the hospital.

Supervisor J. Drew Hiatt
Dulles District
P.O. Box 7000
Leesburg, Virginia 20177-7000
Office Phone: 703-777-0204
Fax: 703-777-0421
e-mail: jdhiatt@aol.com

[Azsweepay]

Other pieces of land get rezoned, why can't that happen here as well?

Gregg Sandelli

[Dwarflord]

If the hospital/psych center was here before housing development began, how many people would have bought a home here. Im sure the answer would be very few--I for one would not have purchased here. They do this with new communities all the time. Wait until almost all the housing is developed, then throw in the "crap". In my last community the builder "Washington HOmes" could not sell the last few housing plots fast enough so they sold it to HUD. Now we had people in the neighborhood a stone's-throw away who could give a rat.... about how their home and neighborhood looked. Im sure when we went to buy our homes, the builder never mentioned that a hospital was planned to go in. Of course we could have looked at the zoning, but this is "tact" that developers like to take.
Loudoun has one hospital about 4 miles away, just expand it.....there is absolutely no reason to build a "2nd hospital" this close in proximity and in a neighborhood. There is a ton of land out there in Loudoun that does not encompass neighborhoods. There is no reason to put a hospital in the Broadlands, none.

DwArFlOrD

[SpongeBob]

The bottom line is:
-Terrabrook (not the homeowners) owns the commercial property.
-It has been zoned (and published as) Commercial from day one.
-The proffer for Broadlands already required a mental health facility from the beginning. (Did Terrabrook advertise this? - NO. Did prospective homebuyers research Broadlands at the County Building? - Doubtful.)
-HCA is a "for-profit" company and I'm sure has done extensive analysis of where the most profitable place to site a hospital in northern Virginia is.
-Broadlands is nowhere near being built-out, so Terrabrook still has an interest in making sure houses sell here.
-If a citizen is interested in influencing the decision of whether the hospital gets built or not, he or she has two avenues to pursue:
1. Make your opinion heard to the State Health Department, who has to approve the "need" for this hospital, and/or
2. Make your opinion heard to the County Board of Supervisors either by phone, letter or speaking at the hearings that will occur. The land must be rezoned to allow the use of a hospital.

[Dwarflord]

? Sponge, what are you talking about?
Nobody is refuting that homeowners dont own the commerical property. The homeowners are just trying to retain the values of their home the best they can by defending their position against a hospital going in. A restaurant, laundry mat, CVS....all is fine, but not a hospital--c'mon.
As far as your speculation on HCA performing an "extensive analysis", I find that difficult to believe. My reason is this: How much money are they going to make in a community where another hospital resides about 4 miles away (not to mention Reston or Fair Oaks), and the average age of the community is about 46 years of age. This is not an "old-folks" community here. How many psyche patients will originate from our neighborhoods......these people will be brought in. Its our leadership that has bought into this idea and will allow this to happen, not necessarily due to a good cost analysis model.
Broadlands is not finished being developed, but the houses that reside adjacent to the commercial zoning are completed based on the community maps Ive looked at, hence the impact and concern that is being expressed. The other homes to be built won't be affected at all by this because they will reside off of Claiborne, plenty of distance away.
Irregardless, this is silly. No matter how you slice and dice it, sugarcoat or whatever. A hospital and psyche center has no business being in a neighborhood.....Id love to hear a good reason.

DwArFlOrD

[SpongeBob]

I'm not in favor of or opposed to the hospital. I'm still deciding. I've just heard a lot of misinformation being circulated. I'm just pointing out the proper place for citizens to voice their opinions. As far as the site selection goes, if it weren't the most profitable, viable site, why in the world would HCA select it?

[lkwl]

Can someone enlighten me about the history behind the Loudoun Hospital Center's inability to expand? Since I first moved to Loudoun in 1989, it seems that LHC has always begged for more beds to better serve the citizens of Loudoun County. Each request seems to have been answered with a flat-out "no" or LHC was granted permission to add significantly fewer beds than requested. (I'm sorry, I never found it important before to commit to memory which organization had the authority to grant LHC's requests.)

LHC does not have enough beds or staff at this time to serve the citizens of Loudoun. But I fear another hospital so close would provide too many beds in the area, and I'm not sure that both hospitals could survive.

Yes, I am concerned about ambulance sirens, helicopters, traffic patterns, transportation of hazardous materials, security, and property values. But I am most troubled by the ability of a new organization to add so many new hospital beds in one shot while LHC has to pull teeth to add just a few at a time. To be blunt, this is one of those intangible things that makes me wonder who got paid and who got [slept with -- rhymes with "paid"]. I have a nagging suspicion that something bad is going to happen in the future because of something we don't yet know about or understand.

LKWL

[vweisenburg]

The hospital beds are are granted by the HSA of Northern Virginia. LHC cannot juts add beds because beds are apportioned on a regional basis (all of Northern Va). HCA can add the beds because thay already own the beds at the Arlington hospital and the psych facility. They are not adding beds, just relocating them.

[Donna]

Hi everyone, as most of you know I have been sending out emails to update you on the goings on concerning the hospital. I have presented to the BOS, spoke with the planning commission, HCA, Domioin Hospital, county officials, etc. This hospital is not a good thing for our neighborhood. For our community yes, not our neighborhood.. I would like to clear up a few misconceptions that I have read on this board. When Loudoun hospital was expanding they asked the state to keep the Cormwall location open. The state said no that 2 hospitals were not needed in Loudoun County. That was less than 3 years ago. To understand a little better read through the Proffers yourself and the zoning ordinance. Secondly, I have called on hospitals for over 10 years. On any given day you can find syringes, used tubing, used gloves, clamps, masks, ekg pads, needles, bloodied towels, etc. It is not good to live within walking distance of a hospital. That is why Loudoun hospital is placed where it is...away from homes. I could go on and on about why this is not a good thing, but that will be discussed once the HOA sets up our homeowners meeting. Don't fool yourself into thinking property value and quality of care will increase...It wont. Look at HCA as a company and their past history and then tell me if you would want to do business with them, and place your life or your loved ones lives in the hands of HCA. I wouldn't. Where you also aware that 45% of the patients being transferred to Domioin hospital from only one county hospital arrived in schackles and under police escort. Did you know that Dominion hospital used to be a nursing home...then they changed their charter...do you think it's possible that they could once again change their charter to include violent mentally disturbed patients. Also have you read the Mayors task force report that was presented to the BOS... Donna Fortier

Donna Fortier

[jaym]

They have to rezone the land to be used for the hospital? How do we stop this from happening? I heard the HOA/terrabrook board is in favor of the hospital so who do you voice your opinions to?

[vweisenburg]

First of all, Loudoun is just a close to homes as the Hospital in Broadlands would be. The last time I checked they aren't having problems selling houses in Lansdowne. In fact we would be lucky to have our houses in the same price range. Second, Loudoun was not allowed to keep the Cornwall location open because the HSA did not feel that additional beds were needed in the region. The new hospital is not adding beds just moving them. Loudoun was free as anyone else to buy the hospital in Arlington but they didn't. HCA did. Third, where in the world have you seen medical waste just lying around a hospital? Outside of the designated trash areas I haven't seen what you claim to see at either Loudoun, Fairfax, or Fair Oaks. If you are going to argue against the hospital at least use facts and not scare tactics.

Hospitals don't drive down property values and people don't stay away from developments because hospitals are near by. Otherwise there wouldn't be million dollar homes near Loudoun, Fairfax, or Fair Oaks.

[Jimnel]

We are strongly opposed to the hospital being built in the Broadlands Community. We spent 18 Months Building a House with Van Metre based on a "Planned Community" - That was available for public display at our community Center. I feel we have been misled on the plans for the space marked as "office buildings". There was a Proffet which included a 5-Acre Psych/Library...We all signed up for this..We did not sign up for a 52+ Acre 140+ Room Hospital/Psysch Ward right down the street.

In all the other locations that I have lived, Hospitals have been built and Communities grow up around them...not the other way around. I agree that Eastern Loudoun County will be growing significantly over the next 10 years..and will need more Public facilities to support the residents. Why Can't this Hospital be planned along with a new community that has not already been built?
We already have Loudoun Hospital in Landsdowne which is close to the Braodlands.

No matter how much HCA want to sugar coat this deal...it still smells the same after you peal back the fluff. We will be an active part of the oppositon to fight against this Hospital being placed in our community.

[Jimnel]

We are strongly opposed to the hospital being built in the Broadlands Community. We spent 18 Months Building a House with Van Metre based on a "Planned Community" - That was available for public display at our community Center. I feel we have been misled on the plans for the space marked as "office buildings". There was a Proffet which included a 5-Acre Psych/Library...We all signed up for this..We did not sign up for a 52+ Acre 140+ Room Hospital/Psysch Ward right down the street.

In all the other locations that I have lived, Hospitals have been built and Communities grow up around them...not the other way around. I agree that Eastern Loudoun County will be growing significantly over the next 10 years..and will need more Public facilities to support the residents. Why Can't this Hospital be planned along with a new community that has not already been built?
We already have Loudoun Hospital in Landsdowne which is close to the Braodlands.

No matter how much HCA want to sugar coat this deal...it still smells the same after you peal back the fluff. We will be an active part of the oppositon to fight against this Hospital being placed in our community.

[middleridge]

The people in greatest need of mental counseling are ones that think its a fantastic idea to have a hospital built next to your new home.

Hospitals are obviously needed by the community, but having one next door will lower your property value. All the arguments against have been presented on this board already, I agree with them and oppose the idea. It is not pleasant to hear that neighbors don't want mentally disturbed people in their midst - but it is a fact.

You can criticize this thinking as NIMBY - you're right. Add hospitals to the list along with sewage treatment plants, landfills, prisons, crack houses, nuclear storage facilities, oil refineries, Al-Quaeda terrorist training centers, child molester day camps, clown colleges -and anybody else the developer can unload this land to after we have already bought here.

Already watching for syringes,

Concerned Homeowner

[GCyr]

I'm not overly thrilled with having a hospital built directly across the street from my house, but I'm not totally against it at this point and would like to hear more facts instead of hype to make up my own mind.

What really amazes me is the hype that we will have pedophiles running around our neighborhoods because of the hospital. Based on what facts? Have the neighborhoods around the current Dominion facility had such problems or other problems with Dominion patients? That factual information would be more useful than hype.

As for the new hospital COPN not including OB capabilities, I didn't have any problem understanding this when it was explained to us this past Thursday evening (7/25). If the lack of OB capabilities concerns you, work with them to get OB added if their application is approved -- that's not a reason for opposing the hospital.

Where was all the neighborhood concern when Clyde's announced their restaurant? Based strictly on hype, won't Clyde's be a late night and weekend facility that will contribute to traffic and parking problems (e.g., weekend events, wedding receptions, office parties) and noise pollution (e.g., music, car horns)? Isn't Clyde's a favorite afterwork/weekend drinking place? How about drunk drivers leaving Clyde's, some of whom will be driving past the playground? Why did we need such a facility in our development? After all, there's one just down the road in Reston.

If someone can tell me what would be built in the commercial area instead of the hospital and guarantee that it wouldn't be as bad as having a hospital, I'll make up my mind. I know this area was zoned commercial, but what is the exact zoning -- does anyone know?

According to the county zoning regs, PD-CC Planned Development - Commercial Center (if that were the zoning) allows such things as (depending on what type of zoning it is):

Office, medical and dental
Office, administrative, business, and professional
Business service establishment
Utility substation, dedicated
Water pumping station
Sewage pumping station
Motor vehicle sales and accessory service
Motor vehicle service and repair, light
Automotive service station
Mass transit facilities and stations
Water treatment plant
Sewage treatment plant


Building Height. No building in any commercial center shall exceed 35 feet; except that in [small regional] and regional centers a building may be erected to a maximum of (50 feet in a [Small Regional Center] and (100) feet in a Regional Center district if it is set back from public streets or from lot lines that do not constitute boundaries of districts with lower maximum height restrictions, in addition to each of the required minimum yard dimensions, a distance of not less than two (2) feet for each one (1) foot of height that it exceeds the thirty five (35) foot limit.

So, the bottom line is, although the jury is still out on having a hospital across the street, how do I know the alternative won't be as bad or worse (e.g., sewage pumping or treatment plant)? Yes, the alternative could also be much better than the hospital or the possibilities I mentioned, but how can we be assured of this since we can't dictate what gets built there?

[Deb]

As I read these posts, having not decided one way or the other, the folks who support the hospital sound the most rational to me.

If you are all so concerned about mental health facilities, why haven't you complained about the live-in mental health facility for mentally challenged people located at Claiborne and Ashburn Farm Parkway? Are you aware that some of your Broadlands neighbors are practicing mental health specialists, and have patients visiting their home offices? I really don't want folks suffering from depression driving themselves to the hospital if their treatment fails, so the police escorts are fine with me. Why the phobia about mental patients, when the majority of the people we are talking about in this demographic are suffering from things like attention defecit disorder, anxiety, depression, or anorexia? This is not zoned for a facility for the criminally insane, like you all make it sound.

If there are some realtors out there who agree that hospitals drive down property values, I haven't heard from them. The realtors I've spoken to say EMPHATICALLY that it is much easier to sell a home close to a hospital vs. close to an office park. In our case, the hospital would not be visible from the residential area. The office park that was slated for Broadlands Blvd. would. If I lived on Broadlands Blvd., I'd rather look at trees than parking lots and office buildings.

Ambulances typically turn their sirens off a mile away from hospitals. I know because I was a patient in one after a childbirth complication, and this is what the driver told me. (Also, I have friends who live in Reston Center and vouch for this.) I was a patient in Reston hospital for the better part of that week and never heard or saw a helicopter land. I have been to Landsdowne Resort, the restaurant, the medical offices and the emergency room there quite a bit. I've never seen a helicopter there, either. (I DID hear the police helicopter circling Broadlands in the middle of the night when those homes in our neighborhood were broken into.) The planes from Dulles would be more of a deterent for me, personally.

As I said, I have not made up my mind yet, but all of you naysayers have not come up with any logical arguments for me. You sound more emotional, as if you don't want ANYthing built on Broadlands Blvd., or as if you bought into this soon to be 3,500 home community expecting it to remain a country setting.

I welcome the competition between the hospitals, and many of the people at the meetings held so far seem to be affiliated with Loudoun Hospital in some way. I can understand why Loudoun Hospital would not want another hospital in the region. They'll have to work harder. And, my experience with Reston has been much better than with Loudoun Hospital. I know several people who would echo that sentiment. But who can argue against bringing healthcare jobs into the community, and competition that will bring better doctors, shorter waits in the emergency room, and shorter waits to get appointments with specialists?

Much of what I have read against HCA seems inflammatory and it sounds like it's been sensationalized. I know I won't be sending my children across a divided highway to Broadlands Blvd. to play, so I'm not impressed with threats that there might be dangerous stuff in the hospital's garbage. I'm sure you could poke around Clydes and find dangerous kitchen utensils. The kids could get into some trouble on the grounds of the gas station if they tried.

My main concerns about a hospital in Broadlands would be:

1. Show me how this benefits our neighborhood. Show me how this project will compare to an office park, with regard to traffic, esthetics, the quality of jobs being offered, crime statistics.

2. Show me why this location makes sense. I understand that the population center of Loudoun County is here, but I would like to see a map of where the HCA officials expect their patients to be traveling from.

3. I think there needs to be some more detail on what types of services the hospital will provide. I know this has been laid out, but it seems there is still some confusion over how much of the hospital staff would be devoted to pediatric vs. adult care, psychiatric care, trauma and emergency room services, etc. Is it possible that this hospital will complement (vs. compete with) Loudoun Hospital's expertise?

4. Since some folks seem afraid that it would become a hospital devoted 100% to the psychotic humans in the tri-state area, how realistic is this scenario?

5. If D.C. wins the bid for the 2012 Olympics, and 10-story high rises in the "Reston Town Center style" are built on the property adjacent to Broadlands, would this proposed hospital be a good thing for our community? Or, will planners be wishing they had built something different in a new location? Likewise, if Loudoun County's economy takes a turn for the worst, would the HCA hospital be a good thing to build in a recession?

Sorry to be so long-winded, but it's hard to search through all the rhetoric for facts, and I get frustrated by the appearance that two distinct groups have already formed that have made up their minds - regardless of whatever the data that is eventually presented shows. I have to wonder whether there would be this much discussion if an office park were proposed on Broadlands Blvd. Would we be deciding things like whether to allow neon signs, how the hazardous waste from dry cleaners would be dealt with, where to put the curb cuts for the patrons of businesses like hair salons, dentists, and banks that have customers coming and going all day long?

Based on the information that has been presented so far, I guess I'm waiting for someone who sounds rational, is not affiliated with Loudoun Hospital in any way, has more than biased opinions to offer, and who has a vested interest in this community to step up to the podium.

[Donna]

I agree there has been a lot of misinformation being spread around about this hospital. If you are only listening to one side and taking that information as truth then you are not fully informed. If you are not listening to your neighbors valid concerns and why they are against this then you have made a decision based only on emotion. If you live far enough away that you personally will not be affected, but your neighbors who live close enough to be affected day in and day out by the noise, traffic and safety and don't consider their concerns valid then you are not listening with an open mind. If you think you know the whole story because you have attended a few HCA or Terrabrook meetings and have not researched the information yourself...shame on you. I have asked several times for those people who are for it to give 5 valid reasons for that decision, but like HCA/Terrabrook saying they will provide documentation that our homes values will increase...I'm still waiting.

Donna Fortier

[GCyr]

Donna,

I'm listening to both sides and I'm trying to be fully informed. And, as I mentioned, I haven't made up my mind for or against the hospital. However, there's some misinformation being presented by both sides, so it's sometimes difficult to extract the truth from the hype and half-truths. I'm not directing this at you or suggesting that you're not putting out good information -- it's directed at both points of view in general.

I wonder how many people believed everything LHC presented at their meeting because LHC is on "our" side. Just as HCA put a positive spin on their presentation, you better believe LHC did the same to theirs. Since my wife has been working for LHC as an RN for over 18 years, I know better than to believe everything they presented.

As for my location to the proposed hospital, I live directly across Broadlands Blvd from the hospital location, so I'll be directly affected by it. I'll also be directly affected by whatever gets built in place of the hospital if the hospital isn't built. So, where as some people are against the hospital because it'll affect them from a few blocks away, I'm concerned because whatever gets built is directly across the street from me.

I certainly don't know the whole story but I'm still doing researching to make up my own mind. Just because someone is for the hospital doesn't mean they don't know the whole story -- they just don't share your point of view and/or interpreted the data differently.

You mentioned that you've asked people who are for the hospital to give you 5 valid reasons for that decision. How about directing me to sources for the following 5 areas of concern:

1. Where is the data substantiating claims that our home values will decrease because of the hospital?

2. Where is the data substantiating concerns that we will have pedophiles and mental patients walking around our neighborhoods because of the hospital?

3. What problems has Dominion Hospital and its neighborhoods had with the above problems (see #2)?

4. Where is the data substantiating claims that not-for-profit hospitals are better, or make better neighbors, than for-profit hosptials? What percentage of profits do each put back into the community?

5. Why should we be concerned about on-going HCA law suits or other problems? Does LHC have similar problems? If HCA built the hospital and closed it later because of financial problems (and they didn't sell it as I believe you mentioned), wouldn't we be left with an unused building and no traffic or noise problems? If they did sell the building, at least the building foot prints might be better than something else another builder proposes.

I don't expect you to answer my questions -- just direct me to sources where I can do my own research.

Thank you,
GCyr

[ctgc]

First, let me say that I agree 100% with the 7/26 post by Jimnel.

I am very opposed to the hospital. I am not obsessing over property values, ambulance sirens, toxic waste, or free roaming mental patients. But, I am concerned that as I understand it (from attending the HCA meeting on 7/29), this hospital *will* have a larger number of beds dedicated to mental health than the other No. VA hospitals discussed. It also will *not* have a maternity ward. It sounds logically like this hospital will draw more mental health professionals and patients than other hospitals in our area.

My opposition is really much more basic though. A major hospital will bring many, many people into our neighborhood that would not otherwise have reason to be there. These people will be different people every day of the year. They will come and go all hours of the day and night. Not all of them will come and go on Broadlands Blvd. Some will cut thru our neighborhood, others will simply get lost on our streets. I have small children. I don't need any extra strangers in our area. We hear of too many tradgedies these days. If office buildings were to go into that space, there would obviously be increased traffic, but it would presumably be limited to business hours and it would not be different people everyday.

Broadlands is a beautiful family oriented community. We have nice homes, trees, pools, bike paths, and our own schools. I just don't see how a major hospital in neighborhood would be a good thing for anyone but HCA.



Edited by - ctgc on 08/01/2002 14:10:03

[GCyr]

Donna,

When I find and send you information that either supports the for or against hospital folks, do you intend to make the info available on your web site or are you just posting what supports your point of view? It's your web site, so you can post what you want but it would be nice if both points of view were available for all to read and make their own decision based on the information.

Also, could you tell us what your affiliation or association is with Loudoun Hospital Center, if any?

Greg

[GCyr]

All,

Since there are two opposing points of view about the new hospital, but only the information supporting the anti-hospital group seems to get posted elsewhere, I'll provide what I have here with a link so you can read it and make your own decision about what it says.

I found an interesting study that addresses some of the NIMBY concerns. The study was commissioned to assist developers address development concerns within communities, but it does address many of the concerns/issues expressed at hospital/HOA meetings. I do realize the guide's primary purpose is to assist developers, but studies were conducted to support this report and the results deserve consideration. The entire report can be viewed at:

http://www.bettercommunities.org/index.cfm?method=resourceguide1


Of special interest is Part One in the report which addresses property and market values, crime and safety, and people with mental disabilities. Here are some quotes from Part One:

Market Values

Market value studies typically involve a quantitative analysis of real estate transactions for several years before and after the establishment of a facility. Almost all of these studies indicate that there is no significant impact on surrounding property values.

Other investigations suggest that community-based facilities may in some cases exert a positive influence upon adjacent properties. Explanations for a positive impact often appeal to the well-maintained nature of many facilities and their grounds. The ability to offer neighbors a well-designed and aesthetically-pleasing facility may be an important bargaining chip when striving for community acceptance.

Some analyses have reported inconclusive evidence concerning property value impacts. Finally, a handful of studies have recorded negative impacts on property values, but these are rare. A study in Oakland, California, was unusual in that it segmented the housing market by race, and noted that facilities for adults negatively impacted the non-*white housing market, while facilities for juveniles had a negative impact on the white submarket.

Turnover of Properties

A second commonly-used indicator of facility impact is the rate of property turnover. Opponents argue that community-based facilities will induce a spate of property sales, leading to a weakening of community stability. To investigate the validity of such claims, researchers monitored property market activity for several months or years before and after the opening of a variety of community-based facilities in many different locations.

The evidence points strongly towards the absence of any impact of community-based facilities. A vast majority of studies report no evidence of increased turnover. A small number of studies found some evidence of accelerated turnover following the siting of facilities, but the results in each case were inconclusive.

A study of twelve Philadelphia community mental health facilities, for example, found that while the prices of surrounding properties did not decline, there was some increase in sales. However, the increase may have been more a function of general market trends than the specific impact of the facilities. A Toronto-based study found that sales volumes increased in one of five metropolitan neighborhoods which experienced the opening of community mental health facilities, but the overall findings of the survey indicate minimal negative impact. A recent study of five community residences for mentally disabled people in Long Island noted that although one neighbor complained about a nearby facility, none of the seventy-five neighbors interviewed were able to demonstrate a problem selling homes in the vicinity of the residences.

Length of Time on the Market

An undesirable facility might make it harder for current residents or businesses to sell their properties, and even though this impact might not be borne out by market price fluctuations or turnover rates, it still might show up in the extra length of time that properties remain on the market before being sold. To test the validity of this claim, several studies have compared the time taken to sell properties placed on the market before and after the opening of a new facility.

Here again, the majority of studies found no evidence that the presence of a facility increases the time needed to sell adjacent properties. One study noting a negative impact examined a small number of property transactions around nine group homes for the mentally retarded or emotionally disturbed in a medium-size Southern town. It found that properties in the high-end submarket did remain on the market a little longer after the opening of a group residences. The author regarded this as a “small price to pay, especially for these wealthier individuals, when providing normalized settings for retarded and emotionally disturbed persons.”

Distance-decay

The "distance-decay" effect suggests that properties immediately adjacent to a given facility are likely to suffer the greatest loss of value (or other impacts), and that this negative impact will decline with increasing distance from the facility. Being able to record a gradient of this kind is essential to support the argument that the facility actually caused the observed market fluctuations. The absence of such a gradient would suggest that fluctuations in price (turnover rates, etc.) is the result of more general market trends, e.g the opening of a nearby supermarket or freeway interchange.

Most of the studies that have bothered to examine a distance-decay effect have found little evidence for its existence. Therefore, we conclude that any observed market fluctuations cannot properly be attributed to the introduction of the facilities under review. A study in Green Bay, Wisconsin (during the early 1970s) is unusual in that it recorded both resident attitudes to facilities, as well as data on housing market transactions. The analysis revealed an attitudinal distance-decay effect -- people nearer the facilities were more likely to express negative opinions about it. But no evidence of property value impacts or a distance-decay effect were found.

Some other studies have recorded changes in impact with distance from the facility, but once again, findings are inconclusive...

Resident Awareness

Qualitative methods have also been used to examine the impact of facility siting. As in the Wisconsin study just mentioned, researchers have sought to elicit residents' perceptions about the impact of a nearby facility. These studies report that the initial negative concerns of residents tended to dissipate once the facility had opened and the anticipated negative effects failed to appear.

An additional way of demonstrating facility impact focuses on the neighborhood's awareness of a facility's existence. The level of awareness and concern expressed by neighbors after a facility's opening may be a useful indicator of its "true" impact. Since opposition arguments often anticipate a wide variety of enormous problems relating to the facility's opening, we might expect the community to be alert should any of these problems materialize.

Analyses of resident awareness and concerns following the opening of a community-based facility suggest that most individuals surveyed were unaware that they were living in close proximity to a human service facility. In addition, all but one of the studies indicate that for those individuals who were aware of the facility's presence, a marked improvement in attitudes was common once the facility became operational. (Note, however, that a successful opening is no guarantee of successful later integration of the facility and its clients into a neighborhood; this is one reason why good community relations is an ongoing commitment.)

Facility Design and Appearance

Where community-based facilities or subsidized housing projects are well-designed and beautifully maintained, they rapidly dispel concerns about their negative impact upon the neighborhood. Instead, they frequently draw praise for the way in which they help to augment the community's image. The ability to improve your chances of acceptance through manipulation of a facility's design and appearance should not be overlooked.

Almost without exception, studies have shown that the appearances of facilities equal or exceed those of adjacent properties, further weakening arguments suggesting the detrimental impact of such projects. Discussions of facility design have been extended to consider ways in which facility design and location might be used as an opportunity to encourage interaction between clients and neighborhood residents.

Key Points: Property Values

The property value "myth" remains a powerful battle cry for communities opposed to the siting of human services facilities.
An overwhelming volume of evidence supports the contention that human service facilities do not significantly impact the property markets around them. They do not diminish market values, do not increase turnover rates, and do not make proximate properties harder to sell.
Such property market fluctuations that have been observed in the vicinity of human service facilities cannot be attributed to the facilities themselves, but tend to be associated with broader fluctuations in the land and property market (e.g. interest rate fluctuations).
Neighbors are very often unaware of the opening of facilities in their midst. Those who were aware often reveal significantly improved attitudes after the facility has been in operation for some time.

Facility design and appearance are important in determining its reception by the host community. Facilities sometimes cause property values to increase in their vicinity.
The studies which informed this discussion cover the time period 1973 - 1993; there is very little fluctuation in the findings during this entire period.

CRIME AND SAFETY

Crime and personal safety are the uppermost concerns of most Americans. People usually place these issues at or near the top of the most important challenges that face our violence-prone nation.

Crime and safety become a NIMBY issue because neighbors believe that the safety and integrity of their communities will be jeopardized because threatening individuals are being introduced into their neighborhoods. Hence, the second most-frequently voiced complaint by opponents of community-based human services is that neighborhood crime rates will increase and their personal security will be compromised as a consequence of a service's opening.

The key motivators in neighbors' perceptions of threat are the unpredictability and potential dangerousness of the client group. Threatening behavior is most frequently attached to people who are psychologically impaired, who are substance abusers, or who are in any way associated with criminal behavior. The three groups who have attracted most attention during the period 1972-94 are: people with mental disabilities (which usually means those described as "mentally ill," but excludes the developmentally disabled, or mentally retarded); homeless people; and substance abusers (especially drug addicts). The frequency of dual- and triple-diagnoses of course means that membership in each of these groups will overlap. The almost exclusive concentration on these groups is undoubtedly related to the recent histories of the deinstitutionalization movement, the explosion of homelessness, and the epidemic of crack cocaine.

Before we examine the specific evidence associated with each of these three populations, some special circumstances surrounding the problem of understanding their "criminal behavior" have to be spelled out:

Almost any behavior associated with illicit drugs is by definition a crime.

Compassion fatigue among the general public has led to increased demands for a crackdown on the activities and even the presence of all three groups.

More and more of the activities of homeless people and people with mental disabilities are being criminalized (i.e. being redefined as law*breaking), including public sleeping, panhandling, and informal
feeding arrangements.

Almost every major city in the U.S. has stories of "rogue cops" (both public and private) who harass, arrest, and otherwise penalize people who are obliged to live on the streets.

Relatively minor misdemeanors and fines, if left unattended, can swiftly turn into bench warrants for the arrest of the individual who cannot afford to pay a fine (for, say, carrying an opened bottle of beer in public).
These conditions mean that the people whose behavior we are considering in this section are, by definition, necessarily, and unavoidably involved with illegal activities, even if such activity involves begging for food. A major part of this behavior is criminal because we have declared it as such; similar behavior in other people would be overlooked, forgiven, or reclassified as within the bounds of acceptable behavior. We point this out not to condone aggressive panhandling or drug addicts who steal, but simply to underscore that for many people survival means stepping beyond the law. This condition has always to be borne in mind when we examine crime statistics and the behaviors of people in need.

Key Points: People with Mental Disabilities

People with mental disability are no more likely to commit crime than members of the general population; indeed, they are generally less likely to engage in criminal behavior.

Harmful individuals constitute only a small minority of the population with mental illness. Media reports focus heavily on isolated negative incidents and therefore create disproportionately negative images of people with mental illness.

More and more of the activities and behavior of people with mental illness are being classified as "criminal."

A lack of proper care and supervision within a community setting may exacerbate psychiatric problems, and thus prompt a greater likelihood of contact with the criminal justice system. Failure to provide adequate support and care may also push people with psychiatric problems onto the streets.

There are relatively few studies examining the level of crime around facilities such as group homes for people with mental disabilities. Those that exist suggest that the impact of such facilities upon local crime rates is negligible.

Where people with mental illness are provided with a suitable living environment, they represent little or no threat to surrounding communities.

For developmentally disabled people (the “mentally retarded”), crime rates are generally substantially below those of the general public.

The prison is rapidly being transformed into the first line of treatment for people with mental disabilities. (In Los Angeles County, for example, the largest population of severely mentally disabled is located within the county jail system.)

....

NEIGHBORHOOD AMENITY

Ranked third on the list of complaints that opponents voice against community-based facilities is the claim that "neighborhood amenity" will decline if a facility is allowed to open in their community. Residential and business property owners often suggest that the facility (and, by extension, its clients) will not fit in with the local landscape, or that neighborhood character will be irrevocably altered. Although clearly related to the property values issue, the concern with neighborhood amenity is not solely a matter of potential monetary loss. It is frequently measured as a disturbance of the status quo in the neighborhood, through (for instance) increased pedestrian and vehicle traffic, pressure on parking resources, or the introduction of "outsiders" into the community. Aside from such material concerns, neighborhood amenity also incorporates less tangible aspects of community life, including long-standing traditions and prejudices of (say) religious and ethnic homogeneity. Business owners, on the other hand, customarily translate the decline of local amenity into dollar terms. Those involved in retail trade and the leisure/entertainment industries, in particular, identify many of the same concerns as residents, but tend to translate them into a loss of customers and a downturn in sales.

What is the evidence for declining neighborhood amenity brought about by human service facility siting? In general, the evidence suggests that fears about declining neighborhood character are largely unfounded. As we have already seen, there has been negligible impact on neighboring property values, except, in some instances, to improve neighboring property values. Similarly, studies of crime and safety also suggest that many opposition claims are unfounded.

Human service facilities are often relatively inconspicuous, and tend to be better maintained than neighboring properties. A 1980 report found that only about one quarter of the group homes examined had any type of distinguishing feature, and less than half were even noticeable to the public as a group home. Other studies continue to confirm that significant numbers of neighbors remain unaware that they are living near a facility long after it has opened.

The relatively few studies that focus on the issues of traffic and parking also point to a general lack of impact.

Neighborhood concerns are also expressed about the disruptive effects of client/resident behavior on community stability. Residents and business owners have objected, for instance, to the unusual and disturbing behavior of mentally retarded people, the vandalism caused by residents of a home for troubled adolescents, the dangerousness and unpredictable acts of the mentally disabled, and the public urination and petty thievery of some homeless individuals. Isolated incidents which achieve both local and national prominence do much to influence neighbors’ overall vision of client behaviors. While incidents undoubtedly do occur, they are often rare and do not reflect the uneventful existence in most community-based facilities.

Despite the results of studies that indicate the minimal impact of facilities and their clients, claims about potential damage to neighborhood and business amenity continue to hinder facility siting. The 1992 relocation of a homeless shelter in Yakima, Washington, illustrates the nature of opposition claims, and the ways in which such claims were countered. In Yakima, the Union Gospel Mission wanted to relocate to a larger facility; in response, local business owners and residents formed the "Yakima Gateway Organization" to oppose the relocation. Opponents successfully appealed to have the zoning classification of the mission changed so that relocation would require a public hearing prior to approval.

Three aspects to this case study are of particular interest here. The first is that local opponents successfully stalled the relocation process by appeals to declining neighborhood and business amenity (specifically, fears about loitering pedestrians, property values and declining business). Second, opposition concerns were effectively countered. In addition to presenting expert testimony on the absence of property value impact, Mission operators provided testimony from property owners adjacent to the existing site stating that the presence of the Mission had not adversely affected their business environment. Finally, the Yakima example illustrates the way in which the manipulation of facility design eventually eased the path to community acceptance. The public examiner ultimately supported the relocation of the Mission but with several conditions, including the creation of additional parking spaces, construction of fence, creation of a new bus pull-out, and requirements concerning the entrance to the mission. Although business owners and residents remained in opposition, these concessions facilitated the definition of a reasonable court-based compromise.

In conclusion, it seems worth remembering that the whole question of NIMBYism, and the concern with neighborhood amenity in particular, is another of those human paradoxes that would cause amusement were their consequences not so deleterious. We know that disability, homelessness, and the rest exist, but we are unwilling to commit sufficient resources to meet their needs; yet at the same time, we are offended by the sight of "problem people" in our midst. People urinate in public because they have no access to private rest-rooms; they sleep in public because there are insufficient shelters; they are sick because they cannot access proper health care. Why are we surprised (or worse still offended) when they live and die on the sidewalks around us?

[Donna]

Greg, First let me say that I don't check this site everyday so my response time to answer you may be a little delayed. Also as I mentioned to you personnally at the HOA meeting I am working on getting your questions answered. Also if you have been to www.broadlandshospital.org you would see that we do post information that has been provided to us from HCA. It is not my job to post HCA or Terrabrook data on our site that is nothing but PR. That is what their site is for. However any relavant information that you or anyone else sends will be posted as soon as time allows. So thank you for submitting it. You asked about my affilliation with LCH. I am not affiliated with Loudoun County hospital as an employee or paid representative. They are a wealth of information for us, they are just one of the many and diverse groups that I have talked to with reagards to getting information. (Just to let you know, I have met with HCA on more occassions than Loudoun Hospital and I can assure you I am not affililated with HCA).If you or anyone else is interested in hearing from them let me know. They have a lot of great and informative information that is important to know. In response to your other posting this is what I can tell you. I am also trying to keep myself fully informed on this issue so I would be very interested in knowing from your wife exactly what she doesn't believe from Loudoun Hospital since she has been employeed there for 18 years. So to answer your comments:
1. I don't believe I said that our property values would decrease because of the hospital, what I said was that our homes values won't increase because of it. I think HCA's claim of property values being 20% higher in Lansdown, for instance, because the hospital is there, strains credulity. How close are the nearest homes. How much do you supposes the builders can charge for a home built in a golfing community.
2. As recently as this past spring some poor soul committed suicide in the woods near Reston near a mental health facilty that denied him entrance. This along with other stories are archived in The washington Post, our local papers, google, physichiatry online, etc.
3. Please check Mason District for statistics.
4. You can check the Wall Street Journal article by Richard Freeman and Linda Everett.
5.I directly asked LCH if they have similar problems like HCA. They assured me that they do not. So far as directing you to sources for your area of concern regarding" why we should be concerned about on-going HCA lawsuits or problems" all I can do is tell you MY concerns. Bottom Line is I don't knowingly do business with or affiliate with companies or businesses that have violated the law in such a big way. And when it comes to my family's health I certainly will not do business with a hospital convicted of so much wrongdoing.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to continue to provide information. I look forward to hearing from your wife. Thanks again Greg.

Donna Fortier

[GCyr]

All,

There's an on-line book at the following link titled "For-Profit Enterprise" (1986) which reports the results of research comparing for-profit and not-for-profit hospitals:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309036437/html/index.html

The book is long and a pain to navigate through, but some chapters are especially worth reading, such as Chapter 3 - Quality of Care and Chapter 10 - Summary and Conclusions.

Bottom line, I found a better case toward for-profit hospitals than not-for-profit. At least I didn't find anything that would lead me to state that LHC is better or provides better care because it's a not-for-profit hospital. But please, read it yourself and draw your own conclusions -- not someone elses, including mine.

I managed to capture it, page by page into 3 parts, but the resultant .pdf files total 15.2Mb, so I won't be uploading it anywhere. But if we ever create a repository for all information, pro and con, I can make it available.

[GCyr]

All,

Here's another report titled "Hospital Ownership and Cost and Quality of Care: Is There a Dime’s Worth of Difference?" (Dec 1998). I lost the link to this report but do have a Word document file of it. The following conclusion is a direct quote form the report:

Conclusion
Adjusting for endogeneity, we found that for-profit hospitals were more expensive to Medicare. The higher cash flow to for-profits plausibly reflects their greater incentive to maximize reimbursements from payers by various means including formal and informal contractual relationships with other suppliers of health care services.

Endogeneity may reflect patient choice of hospital conditional on a choice set and/or endogeneity of the choice set. Since we confined the analysis to first shocks, the former may not be an important influence. However, it is plausible that for-profit firms would have a greater propensity to locate where they could make more money. Empirical evidence from past research supports this view (Norton and Staiger 1994). The fact that we did not find endogeneity in the outcomes analysis also suggests that patient choice of hospital is not the main source of endogeneity.

Above, we explained that nonprofit organizations may exist because they soften incentives to produce easily monitored outputs and to under producing hard-to-measure ones. In other words, such organizations may be less likely to cut corners at the expense of quality that customers cannot observe. Applying this concept to hospitals, a profit-seeking firm might cut corners on care that has beneficial effects downstream. Outcomes analyzed in this study clearly fit in the “hard-to-monitor” category. For example, mortality during the hospital stay may be partly observable, but mortality differences several months after discharge would be very hard for customers to trace. We found that nonprofit hospitals were better than for profits on mortality, but if anything, slightly worse on other outcomes, conditional on living to the next interview. For some persons, the tradeoff seems to be between living shorter or living longer but enjoying life less. On balance, therefore, hospital ownership does not seem to make a difference on quality.

Of course, there may be other hard-to-measure outcomes that may be relevant, but we have studied the major ones. Elsewhere, we assessed the probability of readmission to a hospital for the same diagnosis and found no differences by ownership (Sloan and Taylor forthcoming).

Empirical studies comparing public and private for-profit enterprises have been conducted for a variety of industries, especially electricity generation and distribution, water, and refuse collection. Overall, the evidence on comparative performance has been mixed. Based on their review, Vickers and Yarrow (1988) concluded that competition in the enterprise’s product market may be a more important determinant of performance than ownership per se.

Unfortunately, there is little evidence on comparative performance of private for-profit and nonprofit firms other than for hospitals since the latter are only highly represented in only a few sectors, such as health care and education.

In sum, considering differences by ownership, there is a dime’s worth of difference for Medicare. However, the hypothesis that for-profits engage in cost cutting at the expense of quality does not receive support. Compared to previous studies of hospitals, our analysis represents a major advance in measuring program costs and outcomes longitudinally, with relatively many measures of relevant outcomes.

[GCyr]

Donna,

[Quote]You asked about my affilliation with LCH. I am not affiliated with Loudoun County hospital as an employee or paid representative.

The reason I asked was because I heard you and another lady talking at the LHC meeting about having to be careful about some connection you or your companies had with the hospital.

[Quote]I am also trying to keep myself fully informed on this issue so I would be very interested in knowing from your wife exactly what she doesn't believe from Loudoun Hospital since she has been employeed there for 18 years.

Since my wife is still employed there, you won't be hearing anything specific about the hospital from us. The point is, since it's in their best interest to help us defeat the new hospital, LHC will tell us what we want to hear, much like HCA/Terrabrook do. However, all the LHC info seems to be taken as gospel and all the HCA/Terrabrook info as lies.

[Quote]I think HCA's claim of property values being 20% higher in Lansdown, for instance, because the hospital is there, strains credulity.

Yes, I agree -- it's the location (Landsdown) and the golf course that probaby affect those property values.

[Quote]As recently as this past spring some poor soul committed suicide in the woods near Reston near a mental health facilty that denied him entrance.

Stop the new hospital -- one person killed himself in the past x number of years near a mental health facility!! (Just some of my hype.) As recently as a few months ago, we had some people break into local homes -- that happened here, not somewhere else. So, should we all sell our homes now and move out before there are more break-ins, which will certainly affect our property values and/or our ability to sell our homes? Or, do we treat it as something that can happen no matter where you live (i.e., **** happens)?

[Quote]I directly asked LCH if they have similar problems like HCA. They assured me that they do not.

Oh, and we trust them to tell us only the truth?? This must be gospel if it came from LHC!

[Quote]And when it comes to my family's health I certainly will not do business with a hospital convicted of so much wrongdoing.

That's what's great about having a choice. If you, your family, or anyone else in this community don't want to use the new hospital, you don't have to. However, if you later determine the new hospital provides better care or has better capabilities in an area you or a loved one need, will you choose better care at the new hospital or stay away?

While on this topic, one reason some people seem to have decided we don't need a new hospital here is because it won't have certain capabilites, like OB. There's more to a hospital than OB and if it doesn't have a specific capability they want/need, LHC is just down the road from here -- they can go there. I'm sure LHC is so close that if they need to take a child to the emergency room (for a real emergency), they'll drive to LHC instead of the new hospital for care...

Greg

[coopstar]

Greg:

Enough! You are personally attacking someone just because they don't share your opinion. It is fine to put information out there to help people form an opinion, but stop acting childish. A lot of your neighbors have valid concerns about a hospital being in their backyard and it WILL be in my backyard because I live along Broadlands Boulevard. I've lived in Broadlands for five years. First in a townhouse and now a single-family. If I had known about the hospital, I would not have purchased a home along Broadlands Boulevard. So, you can be sure that I worry about property values. Some of my other concerns include the increased traffic and noise; the odor and toxins that will be in the air from the incinerator; the introduction of strangers into our neighborhoods, some with psychiatric problems; and it just doesn't fit with the character of Broadlands. Broadlands won't be known as the community with trees and walking paths. It will be known as the community with the "nut house." Also, I think it is very telling that one of HCA's lawyers referred to HCA's recent problems with the government as "billing issues" and "billing nuances" rather than fraud. Two of their executives were sentenced to jail terms and they have agreed to a settlement of approximately $1 billion. The largest settlement that I'm aware of in the health care industry. We worry about what kind of neighbors they will be. Broadlands and Loudoun County should not put their trust in, let alone partner with a company that has such a record of corporate irresponsibility.

[GCyr]

coopstar,

I didn't realize I was attacking anyone, but if you (or anyone else, especially Donna) took it that way, I apologize.

Just as many residents have valid conerns about a hospital being built here, I have concerns that some of those concerns are not substantiated by facts. The hospital will be in my backyard also, as will anything else that gets built in its place, so I'm also concerned about what that alternative might be. Something will be built in that area, we can't stop that, so right now we have a known versus an unknown.

Let's not turn neighbor against neighbor just because we don't agree on the proposed new hospital. Instead, let's all work together to gather the factual information, make it available to everyone, and let each person make their own decision. Not everyone will reach the same decision or we wouldn't be having this problem in our community. But, at least we will have all used the same information to base our decision on -- right or wrong, as perceived by the opposing point of view. We certainly won't all reach the same decision, but can we accept that and continue to live as neighbors within the community when this issue is over? I hope so.

[GCyr]

All,

Check out the Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) web site at:

http://www.pnhp.org/news_updates.html

for reports such as:

"For-Profit Health Care: Expensive, Inefficient and Inequitable" (2002)

"Competition is bad for your health" (2001)

"New England Journal of Medicine Editorial Says Evidence Against For-Profit Hospitals Now Conclusive" (1999)

There are other similar reports available on the web site.

[Dwarflord]

I'm reading through all these posts and see that there are some strong opinions with many questions and answers, but the one question that I have which has not been answered is this. Is there a good reason why this "hospital" must be located in our neighborhood?

Let's see, a N-E-I-G-H-B-O-R-H-O-O-D...... a place where people's homes are, a place where children play in their yards with their dogs under the shade trees, a place where you can ride your bike to a "supporting facility" (i.e. food lion, local gas station....) and get an ice cold drink in the summertime, a place where you can walk along the paved path to enjoy the scenery of ......OOOPS! a hospital.
Yes, its melo-dramatic, but case in point....there is absolutely not a single good reason to put a hospital in a neighborhood....Loudoun is not running out of land so that won't suffice. A neighborhood is just that, a neigh-bor-hood. Its not a complex concept folks. If you want to live next to a hospital, buy yourself a friggin condo downtown. You want to live away from that, buy a home in the suburbs and commute.....hence, here we are.

DwArFlOrD

[SpongeBob]

That sounds all nice and good; however, the reality is that land has been zoned commercial from day one for 3 million square feet of office space - that's twice as big as AOL! Eventually something will get built there - I personally hope it is NOT a hospital. I don't think the intent of the land was ever to be related to a neighborhood amenity - it is designed to be a MAJOR commercial site. That should not be a surprise to anyone.

[ctgc]

I think most people understand that the land along Broadlands Blvd. is going to be developed for commercial use. The big unknown is what that might be. I'm hoping *FOR* office buildings. It seems to me that offices would be the least intrusive to our community. At least offices would mainly involve 9-5 activity/traffic and that would likely taper considerably on weekends. Offices won't routinely involve emergency vehicles and helicopters. Offices will draw essentially the same people every day. A hospital will draw a large group of different people every day, 365 days a year. I think this is a major point that people are not focusing on. I'm concerned about the perpetual flow of strangers coming into and cutting thru our neighborhood. Major hospitals draw a lot of people. You've got in-patients, out-patients, visitors, staff, and people going to the neighboring doctor's offices for appts.

I've become discouraged because my impression is that the only people who seem strongly opposed to the hospital are the ones close to the site. People farther away are either ambivalent or in favor of it. I don't think those people have considered that traffic heading to the hospital from Waxpool/Truro Parish, Claiborne, or Belmont Ridge may well use roads other than Broadlands Blvd to get there. Vestals Gap, Glebe View and Chicacoan are obvious cut-throughs. Certainly, this observation is true for anything built on the site, but again, a hospital by nature will involve different people 24-7, 365 days a year.

There are certainly worse things that could be built on the site. But in my mind, a hospital is definitely towards the bottom of the list. I can't see it as anything but a negative for Broadlands. It's something we don't need inside our community.

[Dwarflord]

I dont have a problem with zoning, I have a problem with a hospital in a neighborhood. You can throw up office buildings all day long----I dont care, a hospital is a different ball of wax.
I live about 1.5 miles from broadlands blvd so Im not going to be impacted w/traffic on my street (im on a dead end rd also). In a planned community you should expect commercial zoning, but you would expect that the buildings to be placed there are to support the community, in this situation it is not the case. Its a business (maybe non-profit, but that has no bearing) w/no connection to our community at all (other than "maybe" some jobs---but still can be located somewhere else and provide the same jobs). Its the principal of the thing for me, not the traffic, not the potential depreciation of home values....... It just does not belong. Im still waiting for a reason a hospital should be put in our community...........................
Im agree w/CTGC as well.

DwArFlOrD

[SpongeBob]

I guess this will ultimately be decided by the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors (and its Planning Commission). Somehow we need to find a way to convince the nine Members of the Board that the negative impacts on our community outweigh the needs of the rest of Loudoun County for a second hospital. I don't know how we do that. The other hope for defeating it is with the State Board of Health. But, based on HCA's presentation, it appears they are going to slam-dunk that one, barring any unforeseen legal challenges. I'm actually feeling pretty pessimistic about our chances of defeating it. According to our own Board of Directors, they say that they're hearing that the majority of Broadlands residents are either ambivalent about it or are in favor of it. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

[df]

Wouldn't a hosptial be better than the dump that has started at that location?

I've lived 400 feet from a fire rescue station and 3 blocks from a hosptial. Yes, the first couple of nights we were awaken. But, after that, we never heard the sirens again. I heard the kids turn in bed, or the dog go to the door, but not the sirens. Everyone is different, so unless you alrady experience the situation, you can only guess.

Traffic is not a problem, they're doing the traffic study now and based upon the current traffic, they could have a single lane road.

I firmly believe to beat the hospital, buy the land; otherwise do not burn your bridge with the Hospital, work with them to make it the best it can be. I'm over the average age I read earlier, so my opinion is based upon the outcome of many similar situations.

[Mr. Linux]

More information, including site maps of the hospital and artist renderings of what the hospital may look like can be found at:

http://www.broadlandsrmc.com/

Vapor8

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[afgm]

quote:
Donna,

When I find and send you information that either supports the for or against hospital folks, do you intend to make the info available on your web site or are you just posting what supports your point of view? It's your web site, so you can post what you want but it would be nice if both points of view were available for all to read and make their own decision based on the information.

Also, could you tell us what your affiliation or association is with Loudoun Hospital Center, if any?

Greg

[afgm]

I'd like to support Greg on his comment about Donna's website.

The preamble of the website states a wish to by unbiased and a source for real information.

I have made four attempts to post a suggestion on this "unbiased" website. My attempted post stated, "the website logo appears to be very biased and uncharacteristic to the stated mission." A fairly innocuous statement, but apparently one that was taken negatively, and therefore, censored.

Additionally, the material being posted is now becoming very one sided and "Heraldo Rivera-esk". Effectively, eliminating a true discussion on this important issue. This is probably why website traffic has been very low and traffic has been of a low frequency. Frequency tends to show people are interested in the content and see value in revisiting the site.

Point is don't be hypocritical. If you don't want the hospital, be upfront, but don't make it sound like you're trying to be objective.

I am undecided on the hospital, but must say, this is a serious credibility issue for the no hospital crowd.

[Donna]

In response to AfGM, I am very sorry to hear that your comments where not posted, they were not received by this website. Make sure you have used the correct address...ORG not com. As you can readily tell, comments made to the forum are displayed immediatly. There is obviously no sensorshiop on the forum. We are all interested in reading everyones comments...pro and con. You can see for yourself that there are varying views for and against. To date there have been close to 500 visits to our website. We are all looking forward to reading reasons why the hospital is a good idea for our neighborhood (and to date the majority of comments have been against this plan). I have also asked HCA to provide info if they would like. It is not factual to state that I ignored you, I never received your information. If you have information you would like posted please forward it. I have also made several suggestions that if you want a topic researched to let me know. To date noone has submitted such a request. If you refer back to past posts you will be able to answer some of your concerns about my standing and affiliation with LCH. Thank You, Donna Fortier

Donna Fortier

[afgm]

quote:
In response to AfGM, I am very sorry to hear that your comments where not posted, they were not received by this website. Make sure you have used the correct address...ORG not com. As you can readily tell, comments made to the forum are displayed immediatly. There is obviously no sensorshiop on the forum. We are all interested in reading everyones comments...pro and con. You can see for yourself that there are varying views for and against. To date there have been close to 500 visits to our website. We are all looking forward to reading reasons why the hospital is a good idea for our neighborhood (and to date the majority of comments have been against this plan). I have also asked HCA to provide info if they would like. It is not factual to state that I ignored you, I never received your information. If you have information you would like posted please forward it. I have also made several suggestions that if you want a topic researched to let me know. To date noone has submitted such a request. If you refer back to past posts you will be able to answer some of your concerns about my standing and affiliation with LCH. Thank You, Donna Fortier

Donna Fortier

[Donna]

I forgot to mention that the one submission you did submit concerning the website was posted as soon as I read it. Donna

Donna Fortier

[afgm]

I am not interested in starting a posting war here. Please take this as a suggestion. If the forum on your site is suppose to work like Broadlands it is not working. Two of my attempts were to that forum, the same way as done here. My other two attempts were sent directly to the webmaster, therefore, I am somewhat surprised you did not receive them, but I'll take your word it was not received.

Also, your viewer counter on the website must be wrong as it shows no where near the 500 number you have. You might want to look into that as the information on the website references lower numbers.

I notice you did not respond to my main point. Any comments on being unbiased? Any comments on the logo?

[afgm]

Oh, I forgot to mention. If you are now saying you do have a copy of my requested post, I do not see it anywhere on the .org site.

[Donna]

I as well do not want to get into a posting war. For your own info, someone else came up with that logo. For the most part everyone enjoys it. As for your comment about being unbiased...I think that we have been very fair in our postings. If you go to any search engine and put in HCA, I think you will agree that we are posting what we find. I suggested to you to forward suggestions about topics. Also if you would like to do your own research on a topic, and it is verifiable it will be posted, as is everything else. As far as the count on the site, I don't know where you are looking. I have an admin window that shows me all the visits (anonymous visits and member visits) so my statistics are correct. Your post is on the results page forum. Maybe you are having computer problems but it is there. If you have a problem you would like to discuss you can always email me at Dmfortier@erols.com.

Donna Fortier

[GCyr]

Donna,

Regarding your web site, I sent you several studies quite a while back via email attachments that basically reported there were no differences between for-profit and none-profit hospitals -- none of these showed up on your web site (or at least not the last time I checked). I later posted the links to that information here, along with other links to studies that slammed for-profit hospitals so everyone could read the studies and reach their own conclusions. To insure people have access to whatever information I find (pro or con), I'll post the links here so people have access to them.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but once again I heard that you, and/or the company you work for, have a business relationship with Loudoun Hospital Center. This may or may not affect your view of the proposed hospital, but we should know if there's a business relationship and what it is so we can reach our own conclusions. A apologize if this information is incorrect, but I do feel this issue needs to be resolved.

Greg

[Marty]

From my reading of these comments, as well as the web page, I didn't get the impression that Donna is the only interested party, or that it is her web page. Perhaps the comments seem one-sided because there just isn't anything positve to say about a company such as HCA. Maybe someone can enlighten me with some positive information.

[GCyr]

Marty,

You could be right about there being nothing positive to say about HCA. I'm only saying that all information should be available so people can read the source information for themselves, pro or con.

Since Donna had the web site set up, seems to manage it, and has mentioned it as "her web site" several times, I presumed it was her web site -- I didn't mean she was the only one who could post on it. However, the web page logo says it all about the site's purpose, and it's her right to use whatever logo she wants, but I don't expect to find pro-HCA information there. I'm not saying there isn't any pro-HCA information there, I just don't expect to find it there based on the logo.

Greg

[Marty]

Perhaps someone who is "leaning" in favor of the hospital should start a web site. I know HCA has one (and how interesting that their address is almost identical to the first web site created),but I haven't noticed much on it other than an artist's rendering, complete with American flag. I personally have not read even one good reason for building a hospital in Broadlands--are there any????

[coopstar]

I guess you haven't read "Competition is Bad for your Health" posted by GCyr on 8/5/02.

Also, the issue isn't whether Loudoun needs another hosital, it's about not ruining a quiet neighborhood with a facility that doesn't belong there.

[Mikeb]

I believe that we were deceived by the association and developers, as the site plans still say OFFICE BUILDINGS not Mental Hospital. When you have a hospital, shouldn't that hospital serve the community it's in? No Pedidatics, Labor facilities, orthopedic....etc, basically services that benefit the community it sits in, not importing mental patients to our community, as I don't think we have that many mental people in Ashburn.

We have been duped!!!!!!

Mikeb

[SK8R]

Yes, I think Loudoun County could use another hospital, but not in Broadlands and certaily not in anyone's neighborhood.

Western Loudoun county will be in dire need of a hospital in one year! They are growing rapidly. My friends out there are upset that they do not have a hospital, and here we have some hospital wanting to build their place right here a few miles from Loudoun Hospital. That is just crazy.

If this hospital is built here, it will absolutely ruin the neighborhood.
Do you like Broadlands the way it is now? Well, a hospital will change
this neighborhood, and it won't be a quiet, nature friendly neighborhood. It will be crazy with traffic just like Reston.

If this hospital is built (God forbid) we will not be able to take it down if we don't like it. It will be here and we will not be able to ask them to take their stuff and leave either.

It will be 7 stories (atleast) and it will be big and brick and it will be open 24-7!

[latka]

The main entrance to this hospital is coming sraight off Glebeview dr.That is insane.Glebeview is a 2 lane RESIDENTIAL road where children play . I'm not sure some of you are aware of the size of this hospital.The letter states expansion to 260 beds.That is a HUGE hospital.Think about the noise and danger from low flying helicopters.Think about Ambulances speeding down the streets our children ride their bikes on.Property values aside....I think there are saftey issues.Whatever happened to Broadlands back to nature?

lyo

[Mr. Linux]

Latka, it's my understanding that ambulances will only enter the hospital via an emergency entrance from the Greenway. I might be wrong on this, but I heard it a few times from different sources.

As for helicopters, they rarely fly in a perfectly straight line from point A to point B. Most of the time, they fly via 'landmarks', such as major roads, etc. I would assume then that any helicopters would probably be over the Greenway and away from our houses.

The last numbers I heard were that we shouldn't expect more than 2-4 helicopters a month, if even that many. As for the 'danger' of low flying choppers, when was the last time you heard of a chopper crashing while on an emergency flight to a hospital? I'm not talking about News choppers; I'm talking about Medical choppers flown by seasoned pilots. As for the danger of turbulence, like I mentioned before, they usually stick to open areas and then land straight down. Take a look at Fairfax hospital when a chopper is coming in and you'll see what I mean. Most of the turbulence is VERY isolated...

The helicopters are the least of my worries. I would be interested however in seeing a 'traffic impact study' and estimates as to how the hospital can be expected to change traffic patterns in our area. I'm especially concerned about Claiborne Parkway and Hillside Elementary.

The traffic impact is really the only thing that worries me. I personally think everything else is fine with me...

Vapor8

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[ctgc]

I've not heard anything about an ambulance entrance from the Greenway and I attended the HCA presentation that went over this proposal in detail. I'm pretty sure that that is incorrect. The only thing that was offerred was that HCA would consider building an ambulance only entrance from Belmont Ridge. Unfortunately, VDOT regulations will not allow that access. HCA has stated that with *active homeowner support* that they would work towards getting *special permission* to build the access from Belmont Ridge. Well, it's going to entail more work and expense for them to do that, I view that suggestion as rather patronizing. I'm against this hospital and I don't want to offer any help towards any aspect of it.

I have written several posts to this and the hospital.org site where I have expressed my great concern over the intrusion this hospital will bring to our neighborhood. I do not believe that the impact will be limited to Broadlands Blvd. I believe that Chickacoan, Vestals Gap, and Glebe View are obvious cut through roads to the hospital site. I don't think the people living in proximity to these roads are focused on that.

I'd like to hear what the position of our HOA is on this? I heard earlier that the HOA would support whatever the majority of the homeowners wanted. But, I don't know how that's being ascertained or if anything's really being done. Furthermore, I think this is a REALLY BIG deal to those of us in the western end of Broadlands and I would hope that the horror of the minority might outweigh apathy or casual support on the other side of our neighborhood.

[SK8R]

It is quite funny how the people that are FOR the hospital have "personal" feelings about this hospital, "personal" concerns....

What about the others? This is not a personal feeling issue. This is a community issue. This is a BROADLANDS issue.

We do not need a hospital in Broadlands.
Western Loudoun needed a hospital LAST YEAR.

We have a tremendous amount of health care services, offices, and emergency facilities right here in Ashburn with in a 5-6 mile range. Do you know we have several office building EMPTY in Ashburn and Loudoun?

Western Loudoun has nothing.

I have several friends that live in Purcellville and Round Hill and
Waterford. Guess what? They have no hospital close by and very few doctors offices.
We do not need this hospital here.

This is a BUSINESS DEAL between HCA and Terrabrook.

If you are for this hospital you are a sucker. They do not care about us OR our health. They want to build a hospital here because the land is ready and cheap!

Wake up!

[hornerjo]

"I'd like to hear what the position of our HOA is on this? I heard earlier that the HOA would support whatever the majority of the homeowners wanted."

I can tell you that it doesn't really matter if the HOA is for or against it. Even if all our Broadlands HOA members are against the hospital - they are 'officially' for it because Terrabrook controls majority vote on the board. Since they are all for it, the HOA is for it. Sounds odd, but thats the way it works.

---------------
Got Broadband?

[ctgc]

Oh great! I thought the homeowner's association was supposed to represent the best interests of the homeowners. Guess I was naive.

So, I guess there's no point in hoping that the HOA will help. It's just the residents against HCA with all their money and lawyers.

[coopstar]

"As for helicopters, they rarely fly in a perfectly straight line from point A to point B. Most of the time, they fly via 'landmarks', such as major roads, etc. I would assume then that any helicopters would probably be over the Greenway and away from our houses."

Well, I can hear the cars on the Greenway from my home, so I'm sure I'll be able to hear the helicopters too. Goodbye sleep.

If the hospital gets approved by the Health Systems Agency, members of the Broadlands community who are against the hospital need to sign up to speak in the time allotted for the public before each supervisor's meeting. The public is given 30 minutes and I believe can speak on any subject.

[GCyr]

ctqc,

quote:
Oh great! I thought the homeowner's association was supposed to represent the best interests of the homeowners. Guess I was naive.

So, I guess there's no point in hoping that the HOA will help. It's just the residents against HCA with all their money and lawyers.


The HO Association is suppose to represent the best interests of the homeowners, or at least the interests of the majority of the homeowners. However, if you read Article 1, Section 3.3, in HOA Declaration, you'll see that the developer holds a Class D majority HOA Board membership until certain real estate requirements are met.

So, even if every homeowner in Broadlands was against the new hospital and our representatives on the HOA Board voted against the new hospital, the developer's representatives who hold a majority on the HOA Board are not about to vote against the new hospital. So, the end result is, the HOA Board majority will be "for" the new hospital -- the majority rules... You can't blame our Board members for the end results if they don't have control of the Board.

[SK8R]

So, what are you saying? We are wasting our time?
We are getting a seven-story, brick, 24-7, no matter what?

[GCyr]

No, I didn't say anyone was wasting their time fighting this issue or to give up fighting this issue if it's important to you. Just don't expect the HOA Board to fight this issue when the developer holds the majority.

[SK8R]

WORLDCOM is 5 stories above ground. AOL is 5 stories above ground.
Have you stood by those buildings? They are TALL and huge.

"BROADLANDS HOSPITAL" will be SEVEN stories and BRICK above ground.
Do we really want this sort of thing inside Broadlands?

It just seems to me that a massive ugly building like this
does not belong inside our neighborhood,
well, no one's neighborhood really.

[Mr. Linux]

Sk8r, if you don't mind me asking, where are you getting the info regarding the hospital being 7 floors above ground?

Also, I'm not sure what Worldcom or AOL building you're looking at, but they are not 5 floor buildings... Worldcom is 3 floors & 4 floors above ground, depending on where you are. AOL is much more than 5 floors, depending on which building you're looking at... It's not really fair to compare the hospital with those buildings; they're MASSIVE corporate buildings and their imposing size do not come close to what the hospital will be like...

Also, keep in mind that the building will be located in the center of a large area of land, surrounded by trees and vegetation, making it more or less hidden from view from the surrounding roads. At least that's what I can tell from the site plan located on www.broadlandshospital.com

Still, like I indicated above, where are you getting your information regarding the height of the building?




------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

Edited by - Vapor8 on 09/13/2002 16:43:02

[SK8R]

Well... go to the HCA website and have a look at the picture.
It looks like 7 floors to me.
The hospital also "looks like a commercial building" and
it is quite ugly.

Actually there are some very nice looking commercial buildings
in Ashburn/Sterling, not in anyone's neighborhood, I might add.

I do not think there are any 5, 6 or 7 story buildings in any part of Ashburn Village or Ashburn Farm.

I do not think it is a good idea to have such a huge ugly building inside anyone's neighborhood. There are other places that HCA could build this hospital. I do not know any good reason that they should build here right in our neighborhood.

[coopstar]

According to the COPN, the hospital will have a lower level with an entryway plaza level and five stories above the plaza level. So it has seven floors and is six stories high (an eyesore). Also, you may get a tree buffer in the beginning, but if you read the COPN, they've chosen the site because it allows for facility growth. So, there goes your tree buffer.

[Dwarflord]

sk8r,
i agree 100% w/what you said about.....no good reason to build this in broadlands. i even challenged anyone to come up w/a single reason. this was about 3 pages of posts ago. to date i have seen no reason why this should be built here where we live. sorry about all the lowercase, my 9 week old is in my other arm cooing away as she sleeps....;)
we gotta keep fighting until we win......THIS IS OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND THESE ARE OUR HOMES!!!!

DwArFlOrD

[SK8R]

I JUST CHECKED OUT THE BROADLANDS HOSPITAL "PROPAGANDA" SITE.
THEY HAVE ADDED SOME NEW THINGS.
IT IS A LOAD OF PR, SO HAVE YOUR BARFBAG HANDY.
ONE THING I FOUND PARTICULARLY AMUSING IS THE "PERSONAL LETTER YOU CAN WRITE" TO THIS GENTLEMAN:
DR. ROBERT STROUBE
COMMISSIONER OF VIRGINIA DEPT OF HEALTH
HCA ALSO GIVES YOU SOME... PLENTY! OF TEXT THAT YOU CAN CUT AND PASTE
INTO THE LETTER. I TRIED TO WRITE MY OWN LETTER BUT IT CRASHED MY COMPUTER. HMMM...

[Donna]

Well everyone obviously has their own opinion on this and it is either for or against, there really are no "fence sitters". If you are against this proposal by HCA please go to www.broadlandshospital.ORG and voice your opinion. I am asking that you write letters stating how you feel so that those letters can be included in the "Rebuttal" we are preparing for the elected officials and county health officials. We have petitions circulating and would welcome your signature on those. By NO means is this a done deal. HCA has not recieved approval and the BOS, etc have not even met to discuss this topic. Please get involved and join us if you want to stop this. If you have any questions on how you can help, please email me at: Dmfortier@erols.com. Thanks, Donna Fortier

Donna Fortier

[GCyr]

quote:
Well everyone obviously has their own opinion on this and it is either for or against, there really are no "fence sitters"...


Donna,

How did you determine there were no fence sitters? Your own web site lists 12 "Undecided" votes as of 1150 on 9/16.

As a "fence sitter," I'm still willing to listen to (or read) the "propaganda" from both sides and make up my own mind based on facts and what I perceive as the lesser of two evils. I don't care to have a hospital across the street from me but I also don't care to have the dense office building complex Terrabrook envisioned for (or could be built on) that piece of property.

However, I do know that the property will be developed and something will be built on it. The big problem is, what, if not the hospital? Look through the zoning document I provided you. There are other undesirable alternatives that can be built on that property as zoned, so there are no guarantees that the alternative(s) will be any more pleasing to the community. Maybe some alternatives will be less offensive to those who live further away from the property, but those who live closer will still have concerns and/or objections.

Greg

[latka]

The impact on Glebe view dr will be tremendous.Ambulances are not the only vehicles that will be using our roads in an emergency.Anyone southwest of the hospital will use Glebeview in the occurance of an emergency as a cut through.

lyo

[SK8R]

Yeah, Broadlands will be crowded with more than just Ashburn people.
The roads will be busy. We'll have to really keep an eye on the kids.
We just won't be able to let them ride through the woods unless
they are with a big group.
This just bums me out...
I never thought we would be talking hospital here....

[Mr. Linux]

Sk8r, how do you come to the conclusion that the presence of the hospital will increase our crime rate? I can't see the coorelation between the presence of the hospital and our wooded areas suddenly becoming unsafe... Care to enlighten us?

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[SK8R]

You're joking, right?

[GCyr]

SK8R
quote:
I JUST CHECKED OUT THE BROADLANDS HOSPITAL "PROPAGANDA" SITE.
THEY HAVE ADDED SOME NEW THINGS.
IT IS A LOAD OF PR, SO HAVE YOUR BARFBAG HANDY.


How come you consider the info posted on the Broadlands RMC web site propaganda but don't have a problem with the LHC long-term plans info on the Anti-Broadlands Hospital web site?? Or, the "Loudoun Healthcare: A True Community Partner" info?? If that's not propaganda or PR directly from the LHC PR folks, you need to explain what you consider propaganda.

Both hospitals are providing info that is certainly slanted toward presenting their view point. However, I just don't see how you can say the BRMC info is propaganda and not consider the LHC info to be the same.

I'm also interested in hearing where you obtained your information about the kids not being safe in the neighborhoods or walking through the woods if the hospital is built. It would be very helpful to know your source so I have facts to base my decision on.

GCyr

[Mr. Linux]

quote:
You're joking, right?


No Sk8r, I'm NOT kidding... What do you base this on? I'm interested to know... If it's just something you're assuming, then say so. Otherwise, as a Broadlands resident, I'm very interested to know where you got this information...

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[SK8R]

Think about it.
With a hospital here we will have increased traffic, and not just Ashburn traffic. It will be traffic from everywhere. Maybe not even just Loudoun County citizens.
That situation alone brings the possibility of increased
vulnerability to the citizens of Broadlands. Now I am not saying we should all be shaking with fear, but we are opening ourselves wider with a hospital here than say a 9-5 business.
With strangers regularly coming and going, you better keep your eye on more than your patio furniture and outside grill. :)

About the "propaganda".
I feel it is pretty sad that HCA has to give you prewritten statements
to cut and paste to "help" you compose your letter. I am sure they would not send the letter on if it had anything negative, but all of that cut and paste stuff is really cheesy. When I read it all, sorry, I had to hurl

[exrook]

I seem to recall that the School Board building going in next to the hospital site is also 5 stories.

[Mr. Linux]

quote:
With a hospital here we will have increased traffic, and not just Ashburn traffic.
With strangers regularly coming and going, you better keep your eye on more than your patio furniture and outside grill. :)


Sorry, SK8R, but I'm even more confused now... How can an increase of traffic caused by patients and workers going to/from the new hospital, cause an increase in crime? Are you assuming that a certain percentage of the patients (and/or their visiting families) and workers will be criminals?
Why would criminals find our community a 'better' target than it is today just because a hospital is in the neighborhood?
And as I mentioned in my previous comment to you, if your comments are based on assumptions, state that fact. It's fine to assume, as long as it's stated as such. The problem arises when someone considers their assumptions to be the end result. That's not always the case...

And if the crooks want my old grill and patio furniture, and they can haul it all the way down, they can keep it! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[SK8R]

[quote]
And if the crooks want my old grill and patio furniture, and they can haul it all the way down, they can keep it! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


Dear Vapor8,
Do you care about your neighbor?

I am sorry that you are confused about all of this.
Perhaps you could give me some evidence that we will not have
problems in our neighborhood after a hospital is built here.

[SpongeBob]

Is crime a problem in Lansdowne? If it is, I haven't heard about it. I still don't see how we can stop this thing even if we wanted to. How do you convince the Board of Supervisors to vote down an offer to build a state-of-the-art medical center in the center of the population base? I personally would prefer the hospital not get built (mostly because I think that land would remain vacant for quite some time given the current commercial real estate market); however, I don't believe all the "sky is falling" rhetoric that is being thrown about.

[ornate_plate]

Vapor8
Moderator <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>


mod·er·a·tor
noun.

One that moderates, as:
One that arbitrates or mediates.
One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.


ar·gu·ment
noun.

A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
A quarrel; a dispute.
A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood

-------------------------
Got Broadband? YES
Got Wireless? NOPE

Edited by - ornate_plate on 09/19/2002 19:39:06

[hornerjo]

Is there a point to your post? Besides definitions?

---------------
Got Broadband?

[Farscape]

Hi. This is in response to Vapor8's comment,"How can an increase of traffic caused by patients and workers going to/from the new hospital, cause an increase in crime?".

Well, I think there is a possibility for an increase in crime only because it draws more people to this area who normally would never have driven here. It just draws more attention to what is here.

I agree that the hospital may increase crime, I don't know by how much, but it most likely will increase the probability. I live near Claiborne Parkway and because my house and my neighbhors house are visible from the highway, I think we are more likely to be targeted for crime. I never used to think this until, to my shock, on 3 separate occasions, cars have been vandalized, windows broken, and equipment stole in the last year from my little street. The main reason this occured,I think, is beause we are visisble from the busy road. So, the hospital will bring even more visitor to this community and could have the same effects.

One thing that I do not see how it can be disputed is the amount of traffic that the hospital will bring to this residential community. I am tired of sitting at lights every where I go. I have to commute to DC on the weekdays and moved here to get some distance from the traffic. This hospital WILL bring more traffic to Broadlands. A hospital does not belong in a residential community. A hospital belongs with other large businesses. The hospital fits in better where the AOL buildings are rather then the residential community in Broadlands. Granted, the area was slated for business use, but I do not think people pictured a hospital. Instead they most likely pictured a shopping center such as Ashburn Village-Something that BENEFITS the Broadlands community. Bottom line-the hospital does not beloing in Broadlands. The only reason it would be going there is for money. Plain & simple.

[bg123]

I cannot understand how locating a hospital in this particular parcel of land could be considered appropriate. While I have other areas of concern regarding this project I would like to address only traffic considerations at this time.

• While it is good to have a hospital located near a major highway, the Belmont Ridge Road interchange with the Dulles Toll Road is not the best choice. This road is currently a two lane road that will soon be taking on major traffic from numerous new residential developments including Lansdown, Belmont Country Club and Brambleton. While there is much talk about improvements to Belmont Ridge Road, I do not think we should assume it as fact for purposes of doing this assessment. The County and State are currently facing a major financial challenge and the governor has stated he is not willing to raise taxes. This means there may be no funds available to do the project. Without major road improvements this road will experience major traffic congestion due to already approved projects. Adding the traffic from the proposed hospital to this situation should be a serious concern to us all and to Broadlands residents in particular.
• The main entrance to the proposed hospital is Glebe View Road and Broadlands Blvd. Locating the main entrance of this facility at the intersection of a small local residential road (Glebe View Road) cannot be viewed as a rational decision. This is a small, windy road with single family houses. The local streets in Broadlands will become cut-through for cars attempting to avoid traffic back ups. This is not in character with the very residential streets south of Broadlands Blvd.
• HCA is looking at requesting special variances to allow access directly from Belmont Ridge Road and is hiring architects to tackle “a challenging dilemma”. VDOT does not allow access directly from major roads as it creates dangerous conditions and tends to slow traffic flow on these type roads. I do not think that a community should be forced to accept unsafe driving conditions and additional traffic congestion in their neighborhood unless there was a compelling reason as to why this was required.
• This community will also be affected by emergency vehicles driving at excessive speeds with sirens. There will also be private individuals driving to the hospital under emergency situations. This is a negative to the community that will have to endure noise pollution and potentially dangerous driving conditions in their community.

While I would expect HCA to select the site that provides them the highest profits I would also expect our elected officials and the residents of the area in question to insist on making any approvals or endorsements contingent on community impact assessments. There should also be a requirement that alternative sites are evaluated. For example there is vacant land west of Loudoun County Pkwy and south of the Dulles Toll Road that is being evaluated as an urban/transportation hub for eastern Loudoun County. This area to be known as Moorefield Station includes a 596 acre parcel that is still in the planning stages. It is bordered on the east by commercial development. It will be designed to have a gradual transition to a suburban environment to the west. Might there be an alternative site within these 596 acres that can be properly planned out to accommodate a hospital? Might there be an opportunity for all concerned parties to mitigate many of the negative impacts that will surely be brought on the residents of Broadlands. I’m sure there are other locations that might be evaluated and offered as viable alternatives to this obviously poor decision to locate in Broadlands. Let’s insist that our elected officials understand what there role should be.

[Mr. Linux]

On the subject of traffic, have any of you noticed the traffic counters all around the intersection of Waxpool & Claiborne?

Each time I have seen counters at intersections such as this, it was the precursor to a stoplight being installed.

Am I wrong, or would this be our first Stoplight??

I for one think it's a good idea. I've already seen 2 bad accidents at that intersection and it will only get worse as Broadlands South begins being populated...

------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[Donna]

Hi everyone,

I have posted a similar request on our website and thought about posting here as well. We are asking that any of you that are concerned about this hospital coming to please put your thoughts on paper and email it to me at: Dmfortier@erols.com. These letters will be included in our rebuttal that is going to the state and all officials involved in this decision. Also for those of you that have emailed me and have not signed the petition and want to you can come by my house. If you need my address please email me and i will give it to you. THIS IS NOT A DONE DEAL SO PLEASE GET INVOLVED NOW&gt;

Donna Fortier

[readytomove]

We were told that there were going to be professional office buildings on Broadlands Blvd. Only two years later, Broadlands is allowing helicopter, ambulance and psychiatric traffic. Our neighborhood just went from quiet and tranquil to urban hell.

Is there anything that residents can do to fight this?

Mark/Lisa

[SpongeBob]

From today's Washington Post: (HCA voted down in second round of reviews)

Loudoun Hospital Wins Vote on Expansion


An advisory board that examines health care needs in Northern Virginia has voted in favor of allowing nonprofit Loudoun Hospital Center to expand, while recommending that a for-profit competitor not be allowed to build in the rapidly growing county.

The board of directors of the Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia voted 18 to 0, with one abstention, on Monday night to recommend giving Loudoun Healthcare Inc. permission to expand its hospital by 32 beds. That would take the facility beyond the 103 beds it has now as well as the 42 scheduled to be available by April.

The vote against rival HCA Inc., a Nashville-based health care group that wants to build a 180-bed hospital in the Broadlands community, two miles from Loudoun Hospital Center, was 13 to 4, with two abstentions.

The state health commissioner will make the final determination.

[SpongeBob]

Story in today's Loudoun Times Mirror:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=5719022&BRD=1897&PAG=461&dept_id=123365&rfi=6

[SpongeBob]

Another story from Thursday's Washington Post, indicating substantial blow to Broadlands Hospital:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32841-2002Oct16.html

[SpongeBob]

Three strikes against Broadlands Hospital (and one againt LHCI).

From Today's Washington Post:

"VIRGINIA

Report Opposes Loudoun Hospital Plans


A panel that advises the state health commissioner recommended yesterday that he deny a bid by Loudoun Healthcare Inc. to expand Loudoun County's only major medical facility, as well as a plan by Nashville-based HCA Inc. to build a 180-bed hospital in the county's eastern end.

The recommendations, in a report by the state health department's Division of Certificate of Public Need, called both applications "premature," citing 288 hospital beds that have been authorized for the area's planning district but have yet to be put in place.

The recommendations follow a vote last week by another panel, the Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia, which advised Virginia Health Commissioner Robert B. Stroube to allow the current hospital's proposed 32-bed expansion but reject HCA's proposal to build a 180-bed facility in the Broadlands community five miles away.

HCA, the nation's largest for-profit hospital chain, has proposed shuttering two other hospitals it owns in Northern Virginia and combining their staffs and services at the Loudoun site.

Stroube has until Feb. 16 to decide the issue."

[Mr. Linux]

Spongebob (and others),

I have a small request to make. In the future, instead of copy/pasting articles from the Washington Post or other publications, I would request that you simply write a short summary of the article and then a direct link to it.

Many publications, such as the Washington Post, have very strict restrictions as to what can be copied from their site and posted elsewhere 'verbatim'. I for one, don't want to get involved in dealing with these publications when/if they come to us with 'copyright' issues...

Please, don't take this request as me telling you not to post your information. I believe ALL this information is important to all of us and provides valuable information to all Broadlands residents. I just don't want attorneys to come down on us in the future...

Please continue to post all the information you find for us to read. Just provide a link to it instead :)

Thank you for your understanding...


------------------------------------------------
Got Broadband?
Yea, REALLY SOON now!

[Elspeth]

I’m fifteen years old, and I have read through all of the messages in this forum and I have decided to vote against the hospital. Why do we need another hospital when we have one 5 miles away? I know that when my mom and dad bought here about 5 years ago, they had no idea that Broadlands would allow a hospital to be built here! If you go to www.broadlands.org, it says that Broadlands is “a place where the noises stop and sounds begin”. Don’t you think that a hospital built right here in this neighborhood would cause “noise”? I mean, c’mon...the plan for the Broadlands Regional Medical Center at www.broadlandsrmc.com says that there will be a helipad. And hospitals have ambulances, with sirens... so it will be noisy. Plus, if you look at the plan for the Broadlands RMC, it also shows “parking structures”. Aren’t those parking garages? I think that parking garages are ugly looking! The plan shows that there will be trees surrounding the hospital, but I think that it will take a long time for those trees to grow high enough so the “parking structures” will not be visable from Broadlands Boulevard. So, from the information I found on the two websites, I think that the hospital in Broadlands will not only change the neighborhood (into a noisy place) but it will not be a very attractive building, changing the natural, peaceful look of the neighborhood.

Didn’t all of the residents here buy in Broadlands because it was a beautiful area? Well, from the look of the plan at Broadlandsrmc.com, the hospital will require a huge piece of property, and many trees will be cut down. How would you like it if you lived on Middle Ridge and you looked out your bedroom window, and you saw a HOSPITAL? gee, what a beautiful view!
Hospitals are open 24-7. You will see flashing lights and ambulances rushing on Broadlands Boulevard all night! I know that the sirens will not be the loud ones at night, but it will still be noisy. A hospital will change Broadlands. If the Broadlands RMC is built, when I sit out on my family’s deck on a nice day, the sound of the neighborhood will just be so different. Also, a lot more people will be driving around our neighborhood at all hours of the day. On the Broadlands RMC webside, it shows that there will be 2 entrances.
My family went out to Macaroni Grill near the mall last night and we heard an ambulance leaving the Red Robin. The sound of the ambulance was really loud and the noise was really frightening. I think that little children living in this community would not like the sound of the helicopters and the ambulances if the hospital is built here.

Thanks for listening to my opinion. : )
I think a forum is a good way for communities to let their opinions be heard. <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

[asher]

While there have been some well expressed and valid points made about the prospects of a large hospital complex being located in Broadlands, hardly anyone has made mention of the criminal activities of the parent company, HCA, that is pushing through this plan.

HCA (formerly Columbia/HCA) is a mammoth for-profit health care consortium that is best known for its aggressive, hostile takeovers of smaller non-profit hospitals. It has a history of cutting out the less-profitable services of these community-based hospitals, and maximizing its profits by monopolizing health care and charging the highest permissible rates for its services.

HCA has also gained notoriety for the largest case of criminal fraud in the history of the United States -- with fines totalling over EIGHT HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS for Medicare and Medicaid overcharges, false reporting of services and other deceptions, with additional charges currently under investigation by the federal government.

Even if we feel that Broadlands and Ashburn needs a hospital in closer proximity than LHC, we need to take a closer look at HCA and decide if this is a company that will be working in the best interests of our community. It is not unreasonable to consider their past history of aggressive takeovers, profit-based (as opposed to community-based) incentives, and massive fraud when making our decision.




Edited by - asher on 11/12/2002 17:09:53

Edited by - asher on 11/12/2002 19:20:17

[Homer Simpson]

Why is the HOA pushing the hosipital on homeowners when HCA has lost it's case to all of the independent review boards? One could make a case that the HOA does not hold the best interest of it's residents since it is still under developer control. There is only one reason why the HOA would support a SPECIAL EXEMPTION of the Zoning for the hospital and that is money.

This mental hospital does not belong in a residential area where children play. Especially now that hospitals in our area are under threat of terrorism by weapons of mass destruction.

[SK8R]

PUSHING. That is the key word here.

I wish they would cut it out and go west where they are
truly needed, and preferrably NOT inside someone elses
nice neighborhood.

[palacegrd]

The reason why the Hospital, if it is to be built, cannot be built in Western Loudoun County is very simple. Western Loudoun County does not have the required public water and sewer. That effectively prevents the construction of any hospital in Western Loudoun County.

I would imagine that the restrictions on public water systems were imposed to discourage the development of residential communities.

Noise and traffic -

In short, traffic studies conducted show an actual decrease in traffic when it is compared to traffic associated with an office complex. In reality, the vast majority of traffic occurs in the same time frame of 9am - 5pm due to the office hours of the medical office building and out patient surgery.

Ambulance traffic - studies show that 90% of incoming emergency room traffic is by personally owned vehicles, not ambulances. That said, should this application be approved, we should continue to push very hard to have an emergency entrance established off Belmont Ridge Road. I won't kid you, it's going to be an uphill battle, but one that's worth fighting for.

Statistics indicate that we can expect between one and two helicopter transports per week. BRMC will NOT be a trauma center and as such will not be receiving trauma patients. The only helicopter transports we might expect will be for those patients who must be transported from the BRMC to a trauma center. AND it has been explained by those that make these runs that helicopter pilots generally use Visual Flight Path landmarks to fly, namely the Potomac or the Greenway or other such visually identifiable landmarks.

Hazardous wastes -

Despite you you may have heard, there will be no incinerator at the BRMC.

Mental Health Issues -

The typical patient received at this facility is more than likely to be a member of our greater community of Ashburn and Loudoun County who is suffering from a mood related disorder such as depression or anxiety related issues. And, so I'm told, the majority of the program is geared towards the treatment of adolescent mental health issues.

From what I can see - while no one can make promises - the psychiatric aspect of the hospital will not present any danger to this community. If I thought for one moment that it did, I'd be the first to lay down in front of the bulldozers.

The footprint of the hospital -

Please spend a few moments and compare the footprint of this hospital with that of the 1,000,000 square feet of planned office complex development for this site. I think you will find that it preserves considerably greater green space and the preservation of mature trees along Broadlands Blvd than does the office complex.

Decrease of property values -

There has been nothing that I have read or seen which indicates the the property values in Broadlands will be detrimentally effected by the addition of a hospital.

Does anyone really think that Terrabrook - who is primarily a residential developer - would enter into a situation that could have a detrimental effect on the property values of the more than a thousand residential units which are as yet unbuilt in Broadlands? I for one don't think so.

And I am personally aware of a number of ventures that have been presented to Terrabrook that were turned down because it wasn't felt to be in the best interests of the community.

One can argue all day whether the designated commercial sections of this community should have ever been made adjacent to residential sections. But, that said... they always have been from day one. Anyone who did not realize that Broadlands Blvd has always been designated as a major commercial thoroughfare just didn't do their homework.

Are they potential negative impact issues associated with this project? Of course there are. There are potential negative impact issues associated with any commercial venture.

Do we need another hospital in Loudoun County -

Well, if you look at the numbers, it sure seems to indicate that we do. It's based on an average number of hospital beds per 1000 residents. We are far below the State average in this region.

Competition?

I don't know much about this one. In general, I have always thought competition in business to be healthy. But maybe there was something unique about the health care business so I posed this question to HCA.

I was told that the magic formula has to do with hospital capacity. If capacity falls below a certain number that it can negatively impact on that hospital. But it appears that the numbers support a relocation of the beds that HCA proposes and an approval of the additional beds that LHC is proposing. By the way, HCA does not oppose the application of LHC for these new beds.


Should this hospital be approved by the State, it's been my experience we need to work with HCA to ensure that any potential negative impact issues are minimized and that the BRMC becomes a strong partner with the Broadlands community.

Ask them to describe some of the community out reach programs they are involved with in other regions. I think you might be impressed with their commitment to the communities in which they reside.

So... I'm not asking you to support this hospital. I think everyone should make up their minds based on fact, not rhetoric or hearsay. But that all said, you don't need any reason to oppose it if that is your decision. That certainly is your right.

But I think the vast majority of people want to make up their minds based on the truth. Please, everybody don't jump on me, I'm not saying the whole truth is being espoused by HCA. Of course they are going to spin it towards their best interests. Just remember that Loudoun Hospital Center is doing the same thing.

The truth will set you free!!! Or at the very least assist you in making an informed decision as to your stance on this issue.

Thanks for your ear,
Jim Caldwell

[afgm]

Jim,

Very well said! I've been advocating, for sometime, that there is a very good chance the hospital will be built here in Ashburn. It is best to embrace it and effect how it will be a part of the community. We should concentrate on road access, tree preservation, landscaping, lighting, community service programs, etc. Then truly, a neighborly and long term relationship can be established. Thank you for your comments and positive addition to this discussion.

[Homer Simpson]

The truth is that the Hospital needs a special exemption to the zoning. There is no way to do due diligence on future use if there has to be a special exemption!

That said, if the Hospital is approved we need to make sure that we can minimize the damage by getting the access on Belmont Ridge. But one has to wonder what back room deals are going on if Richmond approves a Hospital that has already lost two battle with the local hospital authorities.

Also, I have no connection with any hospital. I just live here. I wonder about the bias of some posters.

[vacliff]

Hi Homer-
A minor correction: The Zoning Ordinance requires a "special exception" for a hospital. If you read the Zoning Ordinance for this property, it specifially lists hospitals as an allowed use, but must go through the special exception process. There are many other uses that would also be allowed through this process. I worry about the giant dry cleaning plant that the Board of Supervisors just denied in the Cascades area coming over here.

As far as final approval, I have been amazed at how political the approval process for hospitals is in Virginia. It seems the healthcare of Virginia residents is the least concern. The current expansion of Reston hospital was also not approved by the HSA.

[Homer Simpson]

I'd take the hospital over the the dry cleaning plant for sure! I don't trust that the HOA under developer control nor the Loudoun BOS has our best interests at heart.

[jtarnow]

I am strongly in favor of the hospital, and encourage everyone to keep an open mind and constructive approach to this issue. I recently moved to Broadlands from a very established neighborhood in Arlington that, in many ways, is 'anchored' by Arlington Hospital. That facility sits smack in the middle of a very residential and high-property value neighborhood. While there are always disputes between the community and the hospital (particularly over recent construction), I never had an issue with ambulance noise or patients. In fact, emergency vehicles typically run 'silent' at night (only lights, no siren) unless traffic demands otherwise. In this respect, the Broadlands hospital site is encouraging because vehicles will not travel directly through residential streets. (Anyone who believes that Broadlands Blvd. is going to remain "residential" is kidding themselves. Just look at the master development plan -- one side is completely dedicated to commercial use!) I think that rather than taking a total "NIMBY" approach to the hospital, the HOA should work constructively on issues of access, noise and physical appearance.

Concerning the psychiatric aspects of the hospital, I am troubled by what I view as an overreaction by many posters and obvious misunderstanding about mental health services. Persons dealing with anxiety or depression are not dangerous "mental patients" who might threaten the community. They are people that we all live near, work with, and meet on a daily basis without thinking twice about it.

Are there others who favor the hospital but are not speaking up?

[vacliff]

Hi jtarnow-
Yes, there are a lot of Broadlands residents that support the hospital.

[Tech Head]

Does anybody remember the date by which the State Health Commissioner has to deny the application? My understanding was that unless the Commissioner denies the application, it is automatically approved. There is a deadline by which that has to occur. I seem to remember that it was in February. Anybody know?

[vacliff]

The Commissioner will publish his decision by March 1. He will probably reach his decision by Feb. 15, allowing a few weeks to write the reports.
Nothing is automatic. The Commissioner's decision will determine if the hospital will be allowed.

[SK8R]

I heard that HCA did not recieve the approval to build in The Broadlands. If true, then this is great news.
:)

[Tech Head]

IT'S TRUE!!!

From today's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24216-2003Mar1.html

[Dwarflord]

ALAS! There are folks out there that make decisions that do have common sense. Glad to see it....Im dancing my jig :D because we won, won, won!
To all those who favored the hospital [B)], there are other places they can put it besides where we live [:0].........its a big country out there. Long live the "NEIGHBORHOOD", not the hospital complex.

[asher]

The rejection of HCA's application by Virginia Health Commissioner Robert Stroube is certainly welcome news, and we all owe a good deal of gratitude to Donna for her diligence and her tireless efforts.

I do want to point out, however, that HCA has not accepted the Commissioner's ruling, and has already indicated that it is prepared to fight this through the courts. HCA is a massive syndicate with immense resources -- if the profit incentive is great enough, they will mount a court battle, even a protracted one. They have a reputation for being extremely aggressive in their pursuit of lucrative healthcare markets.

HCA has invested quite a bit of marketing capital to locate here, and they presented the hospital as a done deal from the outset -- largely as a ploy to stifle opposition. Judging from the comments of forum posters who assumed that the decision had already been made to build the complex here in Broadlands, this tactic worked.

Given their history of aggressive takeovers, deceptive marketing and hundreds of millions of dollars in consumer fraud, I seriously doubt that HCA plans to walk away from the extremely profitable business opportunity that Broadlands/Ashburn offers. They are not a community hospital. They have absolutely no interest in serving the rural portions of Loudoun County. This is where the money is, and I fully expect that we have not seen the last of HCA.

[GCyr]

I suppose wall-to-wall parking lots and office buildings are going to improve our neighborhood and provide a beneficial service to our community. Exactly how will these office buildings benefit our community versus a hospital?

While the "anti-hospital" folks were busy worrying about our property values if a hospital were built, did they consider how a bunch of office buildings in the same area would affect our property values directly across the Blvd from them? I'd appreciate any research obtained in that area.

[Dwarflord]

I am certain that land parcel has been zoned as such for a long time. I much prefer the smaller office complex/ grocery store center over a hospital anyday. At least the offices/grocery center serves the community as opposed to the hospital which would have been importing their clients from out of the area because they were planning on closing their other facilities for a higher profit margin here. Its the lesser of two evils, but at least we get a beneficial service for the neighborhood out of it.

[vacliff]

Dwarflord-
I also like small offices and grocery stores. However, the site the hospital was to be located on is not planned for that. It is being marketed for 1,000,000 square feet of office space. This is similar in size to AOL or the current MCI WorldCom campus.

[Tech Head]

So, given the current commercial real estate market in Loudoun County, how long do you think that land is going to remain vacant? I guess we'll have to put up with grass and trees for ten years or so...

[vacliff]

For those that didn't see it in the paper, HCA has decided to appeal the decision of Dr. Stroube.

[vacliff]

HCA has filed a new COPN application to build the Broadlands Regional Medical Center. They are also appealing the decision denying their
previous application.
Cliff

[vacliff]

The new COPN application will include OB/GYN beds for the hospital.

[Donna]

As Cliff mentioned and as I'm sure you are aware HCA has filed an appeal to continue to pursue this Broadlands location. I know there are many of you that are still against this proposal and want to get involved. Since we have temporarily taken down the website that represented those people who were against the hospital you can contact me if you have questions or want to get involved. My email is: DMfortier@erols.com. I look forward to continuing this effort.

[GCyr]

All,

HCA is planning to host a community-wide meeting and they've updated their new COPN application to address some community concerns -- see below:

-----
"As I noted in my most recent email to you, we are planning to host a community-wide meeting with residents of Broadlands on Thursday, July 17th, at 7:00 p.m., to discuss the revised COPN application for the hospital. The meeting will be held in the auditorium at Eagle Ridge Middle School.

We have changed the hospital's plans in response to comments and suggestions from Broadlands residents, including the addition of obstetric services and the elimination of adult mental health services (child and adolescent services will remain). At the meeting, we'll discuss these changes and the pending appeal of the earlier COPN, as well as answer questions..."

Greg

[pv]

What happened with this issue? It is so quite; is everyone is fed up with is issue.

[Donna]

Yes everyone is fed up...however we still need to be vocal. If you are against the hospital and want to get involved please email me: Dmfortier@erols.com

[vacliff]

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of what "fed up" means. If it means "fed up" with the all the false negative hype about this application, then I would also agree.
Cliff

[jtarnow]

I'm with you, Cliff. The anti-hospital crowd was posting their opposition to the amended application before the specific changes were even announced in detail! (Which makes me wonder whether any community medical facility, of any kind, will be acceptable to them.)

quote:Originally posted by vacliff

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of what "fed up" means. If it means "fed up" with the all the false negative hype about this application, then I would also agree.
Cliff

[GCyr]

I also agree with Cliff and with you, jtarnow.

I wish the property across the street from where I live (the proposed BRMC location) would remain undeveloped forever, but that won't happen. Either BRMC or several office buildings and parking lots will be built in that location.

With a hospital, yes, there will be traffic and noise associated with the occasional helicopter. However, a hospital and the associated doctor offices, will provide healthcare services to those in the community who choose to use them. No, they will not provide every medical service and procedure that everyone in this community wants or needs. No hospital usually does, including LHC.

An office park will have more traffic associated with it and that increased traffic does not come noise-free if you live close enough to it. Also, most of this increased office traffic will occur during rush-hour periods, while the hospital staff turn-over (e.g., nurses, doctors) is not as great as an office park and the remainder of the hospital traffic (e.g., doctor or patient visits) is spread out over the day and evening hours.

My number one question to those opposed to the hospital is this. What value or benefit will an office park provide to this community instead of a hospital? I keep hearing the proposed hospital won't provide any benefit to our community and it won't meet the needs of our community. So, what benefits will an office park provide to our community and how will it meet the needs of our community?

Greg

[Donna]

Let me clarify a few things from the "anti hospital" crowd before it gets blown out of proportion. First of all, we have been against the original proposal from HCA as we are against this new "ammended" application, not because we aren't aware that that land will be built upon, but because a hospital was not included in the community proffers or district zoning when we were purchasing our homes. I believe there are a few things that you might not be aware of: HCA did not make those changes based on community concerns. I wonder if they made those changes based on what is best for them politically. The ob beds that they have added to the application, I wonder if those beds are being added not because Planning district 8 needs them but because it is easier for HCA to move an application with those beds inculded to any other location outside of PD8. Every hospital within PD8 in expanding, and many are expanding the ob portion as well. I believe PD8 has enough ob beds to sustain this community for the next 7 to 10 years. HCA did not add those beds because of our community concerns, I believe they did it because it best suits their immediate and long term needs. Secondly, the adult mental health beds. Those beds were not deleted from the application because of our concerns, I beleive they were deleted because Cornwall was already approved for an additoanl 20 adult mental health beds. How ironic it seems that HCA decides to remove 20 adult beds after Cornwall is approved for 20 adult beds. There seems to be another VERY important thing that seems to have been forgotten...HCA has paid, IN FINES, the largest settlement for Fraud in the HISTORY of health care. They are paying those fines not because they did good things for the communitys they were a part of, I believe they are paying those fines for lying, bilking and using the patients, doctors and insurance companies that trusted them enough to be ethical and honest with the lives that affiliated themselves with an HCA facility. I believe They are paying because the D.O.J, SEC medicare and medicaide finally found out through QUi tam lawsuits of thier dishonesty and unethical behavior. Who do you think is going to pay those fines in the end...do you think it is going to be the people going to HCA for their care or from the CEOs, CFOs and stock holders that run the Franchise. I have dedicated a year of my time finding out what I could about HCA. Do your own research and I think you will agree they are not the type of neighbor we should ALLOW into our community. Would you want Enron to be providing you their services when there are others out there that are capable of providing those same services within a close radius. Please do a search from the D.O.J, State Health commissioner, HSA, SEC, HCA, etc to form your own opinion.

[vacliff]

Hi-
I'd like to address a few of Donna's "clarifications":
1) "a hospital was not included in the community proffers or district zoning". This is UNTRUE. If you read the current zoning for the property, it specifically states that hospitals ARE allowed. They, like many other approved uses, require a secondary review through the special exception process.

2) "HCA did not make those changes based on community concerns. I wonder if they made those changes based on what is best for them politically. HCA did not add those beds because of our community concerns, I believe they did it because it best suits their immediate and long term needs."
The key words here are "believe" and "wonder". You, nor I, know how HCA ultimately reached their decision. The bottom line is that the lack of OB beds was raised as a strong concern by the residents. This concern is now addressed.

3) "Secondly, the adult mental health beds. Those beds were not deleted from the application because of our concerns, I beleive they were deleted because Cornwall was already approved for an additoanl 20 adult mental health beds. How ironic it seems that HCA decides to remove 20 adult beds after Cornwall is approved for 20 adult beds."
I agree with you here. By eliminating these adult mental health beds, they are not competing with beds that were approved for LHC.
However, it also addresses a concern from the community about the number of mental health beds at the hospital. In particular, there were more concerns about the adult beds than the juvenile.

4)" There seems to be another VERY important thing that seems to have been forgotten...HCA has paid, IN FINES, the largest settlement for Fraud in the HISTORY of health care."
Yes, this is true. It is also true that the people responsible were fired. None of these issues were in the state of Virginia. MCI/Worldcom has played footloose and fancy free with 8-9 billion dollars. I don't hear any outrage or demands that they close down their Loudoun County campus. I guess it's because they make a good neighbor and employer despite fraudulent activity that occurred elsewhere.

5) "Do your own research and I think you will agree they are not the type of neighbor we should ALLOW into our community."
I have done my research and believe they are the type of neighbor that would be an asset to the community. I also have no interest or affiliation in supporting Loudoun Hospital and believe my research and findings to be much more unbiased.

6) "Would you want Enron to be providing you their services when there are others out there that are capable of providing those same services within a close radius."
No, I don't want Enron providing my healthcare, but I would like a facility similar to Reston hospital, also owned by HCA, to provide my needs.
Cliff

[Wick]

Well done, Cliff.

[vweisenburg]

Excellent post Cliff.

From the beginning the anti-hospital group has used exaggeration, fabrication and fear tactics to drum up suport for their position.

We need another hospital here in Eastern Loudoun. Simply just to provide the services that LHC does not.

Most of this anti- hospital talk is completely hypocritical, both from LHC as well as Loudoun residents.

A couuple of examples:

Just two years ago the CEO of LHC (Rodney Heubbers) said in reference to problems in exapnding LHC "The formula makes no allowance for extraordinary population growth or the fact that a Loudoun resident may have to drive to Prince William to find an empty bed. We don’t think that is an acceptable solution.” Yet that is exactly what he is forcing residents into within the next year or two.

and Woodrow Turner, VP and general counsel of LHC said in february of 2001 "The plan takes a strict approach in saying that Loudoun residents should make use of empty beds available in Arlington, Prince William and elsewhere, ... (and)the approach is unreasonable and impractical. " Again now they want us to do just that.

What is happening here is that there are a few residents who don't want anything built near their houses and probably thought since the commercial real estate market is so bad, that if they can defeat the hospital plans, they nothing will be built for several years if ever. All thios talk of feeling bad for western loudoun, or being concerned about the finacial dealings of HCA, or being concerned that LHC will go out of business is smokescreen in my opinion. They are willing to do anything to stop the hospital.

If you support the hospital please get your neighbors, friends, whoever you can fine to write, call, and email our representatives and the Virginia Department of Health. If you don't get involved then the very vocal minority will prevent the hospital from being built.

[Donna]

Cliff, I am not going to get into a disagreement with you over whether or not HCA should be in our nieghborhood or not. I have read the proffers etc, and as you mentioned that is why a special exception is needed because it is not zoned for that type of property. It is one thing to CHOOSE to buy a home near an already existing hospital versus buying a home and having a hospital move in afterward. I have been calling on hosptials and laboratories for over 15 years and DO NOT want them as my neighbor, nor do a tremendous amount of the neighbors you "represent" as an HOA board member. We've all lived near strip malls or at least close to them and we know what to expect and when...What if (God forbid) HCA gets approval to build here and in a years time (or less) you realize they are a noisy, traffic filled and unfriendly neighbor...what then?

[vweisenburg]

The last post proves mt point. They just don't want to live near a hospital.

[jtarnow]

Exactly. It seems that all of the anti-hospital concerns about HCA and the hospital services were completely insincere ... they simply don't want a hospital. Donna, have you ever lived near a suburban hospital? It's not like living next to D.C. General or even George Washington hospital (which I lived one block from while in law school downtown). Urban hospitals are noisy, but so are the cities in which they are located. That's not what we're getting.

Before coming to Ashburn, I lived in a quiet north Arlington neighborhood with Arlington Hospital (now VA Hospital Center) at its very center. Despite what others say, the fact is that emergency vehicles turn sirens OFF when going into and through a residential neighborhood (this might even be state law), and the other traffic is comparable to a shopping center or office park.

Is there an organized group for people [u]supporting</u> the hospital? If not, I think we need to organize and make sure our voices are heard over the noisy minority.

[SK8R]

OMG, I can't believe we are going over this again...

We all know what the "hospital people" want and what the "anti-hospital people" don't want, so don't burst a blood vessel anyone.

However, I"ll tell you what I think then, "this hospital ain't gonna happen". :-)

And then again, if by some cosmic accident it does get approved, I don't care! We will just pack up and move. Broadlands is not that special (just another trashy part of Ashburn), so maybe it deserves an HCA hospital if it wants it here. Those of us that do not want a hospital will just sell our homes and get the heck out of here. It is not a big deal.

Yes, I guess it all boils down to whether you want to live in a neighborhood that suddenly decides to approve a 6-7 story hospital
in it. That is not what I want in a "neighborhood."

[vweisenburg]

Just "Another trashy part of Ashburn". If thar is your opinion then why are you still here? There are plenty of people who would love to live in Broadlands.

What exactly is the kind of "neighborhood" you want to live in?

[vweisenburg]

I have setup a website www.forthehospital.org. It should be up by tomorrow. We can use this to organize the supporters of the hospital.

[jtarnow]

I encourage the "protect our neighborhood from the hospital" people to visit Arlington Hosptial (VA Hospital Center) on N. George Mason Drive and drive around the surrounding blocks, especially to the south and west of that facility. If you don't want to live in our neighborhood, then I guess you wouldn't want to live among those quiet, tree-lined streets where most single family homes have manicured lawns and often sell for at least $600,000 (usually higher).

Thanks for setting up that www.forthehospital.org site, vweisenburg, I'll be one the first to sign up!

quote:Originally posted by SK8R

OMG, I can't believe we are going over this again...

We all know what the "hospital people" want and what the "anti-hospital people" don't want, so don't burst a blood vessel anyone.

However, I"ll tell you what I think then, "this hospital ain't gonna happen". :-)

And then again, if by some cosmic accident it does get approved, I don't care! We will just pack up and move. Broadlands is not that special (just another trashy part of Ashburn), so maybe it deserves an HCA hospital if it wants it here. Those of us that do not want a hospital will just sell our homes and get the heck out of here. It is not a big deal.

Yes, I guess it all boils down to whether you want to live in a neighborhood that suddenly decides to approve a 6-7 story hospital
in it. That is not what I want in a "neighborhood."

[Donna]

You know, instead of driving through the neighborhoods that are surrounded by hospitals, (Fairfax, Fair Oaks, Reston, Mt. Vernon, Prince William,NVCH, Dominion, etc) why dont you get out of your car and talk to the neighbors who live there. I did and the many people I spoke to did have compliants about the noise, etc. We have different oppinions about what is in the best interest of our community, thats all, noone is right or wrong...so there is no need to get nasty. By the way, Noone has answered the question ...if you do realize a hospital is a bad thing, what then...you cant get rid of it. With a strip mall you can always get new and different stores and restaurants. Also dont forget this would be phase one of the HCA project, maybe if we're lucky we can have HCA expand every year or two to be the biggest and busiest trauma and ER center in Northern Virginia. Oh yeah, thats right, that is what HCA wants.

[vacliff]

Hi again everyone-
A few more comments on other posts:

1) "I have been calling on hosptials and laboratories for over 15 years and DO NOT want them as my neighbor, nor do a tremendous amount of the neighbors you "represent" as an HOA board member."

As best as I have been able to determine as your "representative", through phone calls, emails, and personal conversations, the overwhelming majority of those who have expressed an opinion support this hospital. I believe that the vast majority of the community as a whole does not care, one way or another. Conversations I've had with the other HOA Board members indicate the responses they have received agree with mine.
Best as I can tell, you represent a small group of vocal opponents to this project. As a supporter of the hospital I was reelected to my Board seat (no, I don't claim this the only reason I was re-elected) against an individual who stated clearly that they were opposing this application. A supporter of this person had told me thet were going to campaign against me to ensure I was removed from the Board.

2) "You know, instead of driving through the neighborhoods that are surrounded by hospitals, (Fairfax, Fair Oaks, Reston, Mt. Vernon, Prince William,NVCH, Dominion, etc) why dont you get out of your car and talk to the neighbors who live there."
I have done EXACTLY that and we have current residents who lived near those facilities. Not ONE expressed a concern about having lived near these facilities. I have spoken to residents near Reston, Loudoun, Dominion, and Inova Fairfax.

3) "What if (God forbid) HCA gets approval to build here and in a years time (or less) you realize they are a noisy, traffic filled and unfriendly neighbor...what then?"
I don't understand the point of this comment. Does this mean that the residents should oppose any and all plans for development of this property on the basis that any commercial activity may be a noisy, bad neighbor? That is an unrealistic goal. I have been trying to determine which would be better...a hospital complex or a 1,000,000 square foot office complex. I believe we will be far better off with a hospital, based on the research I have done comparing the two.

4) "With a strip mall you can always get new and different stores and restaurants."
This property is not zoned for a strip mall.

5) "Yes, I guess it all boils down to whether you want to live in a neighborhood that suddenly decides to approve a 6-7 story hospital
in it."
Are you aware that this site is already zoned approved for up to 7
six to seven story office buildings? They could be built "By Rights" with no hearings or input from the residents. The impact of this type of development would be far more detrimental to the community.

6) vweisenburg: Thanks for setting up the website. Please give a call when you get a chance: 703-729-7320.

Cliff

[JenCo]

Why would you want a strip mall instead of a hospital? There are strip malls on every corner. What new and exciting stores can they provide this neighborhood? A nail salon? Deli? How bout another Subway or Starbucks? Moot point since it's not zoned for a strip mall.

Having dealt with Loudoun Hospital within the past couple months just reiterated the feeling I'd had about them from past experiences. The average age of nurses (that we dealt with) must be 25. I know for a fact the powers that be laid off many of the senior (by senior, I mean experienced) nurses because of their payscale. So many cutbacks at this hospital have created overworked nurses with nowhere to turn for relief. So who, besides hospital workers, suffer most? Patients! The fact that when LHC built their new state-of-the-art hospital with LESS beds than the old building in the 2nd fastest growing county in the country speaks for itself. I welcome a new hospital. I also hope that any competition will force the LHC management to improve their entire structure and provide this county with the excellent care and facilities they claim already exist.

In response to traffic issues; ever tried getting into or out of the AOL campus at peak rush hour times? There's a big difference between 6000 people trying to go to the same place at the exact same time rather than 6000 people trying to go to the same place spread throughout the day and night.

If air noise is a problem, why'd you move next to an airport? I hear helicopters at least 2-3 times a week now with plane noise an hourly occurance. Why would an extra few helicopter flights bother me? This isn't going to be a trauma center or specialist center that will receive dozens of incoming helicopter patients a day.

That's my two-cents and I hope that everyone reads the actual FACTS provided by HCA and the county. Whether you are for or against, make sure all the information you are basing your decision on is factual!

[jtarnow]

As my posts said, I LIVED in such a neighborhood before coming to Broadlands... so I have some personal experience on this. (Maybe you should actually READ my posts more closely before telling me to get out of my car!) I still question whether you have any personal experience or are just over-hyping what some people don't like about neighborhood hospitals. People against something are always more vocal and organized that those in favor or neutral on a subject.

quote:Originally posted by Donna

You know, instead of driving through the neighborhoods that are surrounded by hospitals, (Fairfax, Fair Oaks, Reston, Mt. Vernon, Prince William,NVCH, Dominion, etc) why dont you get out of your car and talk to the neighbors who live there. I did and the many people I spoke to did have compliants about the noise, etc. We have different oppinions about what is in the best interest of our community, thats all, noone is right or wrong...so there is no need to get nasty. By the way, Noone has answered the question ...if you do realize a hospital is a bad thing, what then...you cant get rid of it. With a strip mall you can always get new and different stores and restaurants. Also dont forget this would be phase one of the HCA project, maybe if we're lucky we can have HCA expand every year or two to be the biggest and busiest trauma and ER center in Northern Virginia. Oh yeah, thats right, that is what HCA wants.

[shamrox]

quote:Originally posted by vweisenburg

From the beginning the anti-hospital group has used exaggeration, fabrication and fear tactics to drum up suport for their position.


Most of this anti- hospital talk is completely hypocritical, both from LHC as well as Loudoun residents.


What is happening here is that there are a few residents who don't want anything built near their houses and probably thought since the commercial real estate market is so bad, that if they can defeat the hospital plans, they nothing will be built for several years if ever. All thios talk of feeling bad for western loudoun, or being concerned about the finacial dealings of HCA, or being concerned that LHC will go out of business is smokescreen in my opinion. They are willing to do anything to stop the hospital.

If you support the hospital please get your neighbors, friends, whoever you can fine to write, call, and email our representatives and the Virginia Department of Health. If you don't get involved then the very vocal minority will prevent the hospital from being built.


Hey buddy. What fear tactics did WE use to support our position against the hospital? And for that matter, what exaggeration and fabrication?
Who gives you the right to call me as well as the other opponents of the hospital hypocrites? We have every right to oppose this hospital as you do to support it.
BUT, DO NOT feel that you can post, like you did above, giving what you feel is 'real reasons' we don't want this hospital built. You don't know me and you don't know the rest of us. And we aren't a minority. I live directly across from the proposed site and I certainly don't want this hospital. I'm guessing you and HCACliff don't live within eyeshot of the site.

...Now I remember why I stopped reading this forum months ago.

[vweisenburg]

You still haven't told me why you are opposed to the hospital other than you live across from it and don't want it. Other than that reason, what FACT based opposition do you have to the hospital?

I sympathize with the fact that you don't want to live across the street from the hospital, but explain to me why those who live across the street should get to decide for the rest of Broadlands, or eastern Loudoun for that matter, whether a hospital is built or not. Based on the conversations I have had with other Broadlands residents, as well as other residents of Loudoun County, the majority of the opposition is coming from those residents who live directly across the street. That makes you a minority in my book.

All I want is a fair and fact based debate. Please stop screaming about not wanting to live across the street from a hospital. Are you saying you would rather have a series of 6-story office buildings across the street instead?

[vweisenburg]

You wouldn't consider the claims that we would have mental patients wandering the streets, speeding ambulances endangering our kids, piles of medical waste, etc.. as exaggerations? I certainly would.

[Homer Simpson]

The FACT is that you don't have to have FACTS backing you up to have an opinion. If they don't want it they don't want it. Noone said this forum was a debate based on FACTS anyway so lighten up. Do you work for HCA or something?

Also, if FACTS were so omnipresent then you'd think they have some sway in Politics but we all know this is false. Fortunately this decision is one of Politics and will be decided by the Powers That Be in Richmond who already denied it once! What makes you think that will change unless you bribe him?

I for one am neutral. But I'd like neither side to win. I'd like to see the property rezoned into smaller parcels. Something more akin to he "Nature" theme of Broadlands. I mean, Broadlands is supposed to be about "Nature" right? We all bought it into it and the website screams it. How does a Hospital fit into that picture?

[Farscape]

I am delurking to let people in the forum know that I do NOT live across the street from where the HCA hospital is planned and I AM opposed to the hospital. I think you may find that most people in Broadlands do not give their opinions in the Forums here and neither you nor I can speak for all of the residents of Broadlands as to how they feel about the proposed hospital. I moved to Broadlands because of the "Feel good", environmental atmosphere that Broadlands said it provided. I understand that the proposed area is scheduled for 'office space'. However, when I decided to move to Broadlands, I thought that the planned 'office space' would be similar to the little shopping centers we see all over Ashburn, such as Ashburn Farm, Ashburn Village. In no way shape or form did I think it would be an exceedingly large office building, such that only a large company such as a hospital or a AOL-Worldcom type building would inhabit. I realize from reading this thread that the site was always allocated for this, however, all I saw when I bought my house was 'office space' on the little future development map. I did not see anything that said that that 'office space' area was "zoned for up to 7 six to seven story office buildings". I trusted Broadlands (& Terrabrook) in that they meant it when they offered a peaceful, environmentally friendly community and I took 'office space' to be what the other areas of 'office space' meant- a little shopping center such as the future Broadlands Village Center. I do not want to argue about my lack of research into what ‘office space’ could be, as I realize that I was obviously too trusting (& very busy), but if the site IS that big, and Broadlands truly was committed to all the members of the community, why not zone the site into some kind of recreational park/shopping area? Something similar to what Reston has with the ice skating rink in the winter. Or how about a movie theater? The one in Sterling is always crowded and we really could use another one. There is ALREADY a hospital just down the road and I really do not see a need for another one. I really feel for those individuals who bought a house across the street, not realizing something that big would go in there. Even though the hospital would not be visible from my house, I still do not think it is right for those who spent the time and money investing in a house only to have it ‘ruined’ by something unexpected being built there. It is easy to say-'if you don't like it, then move'- but it is a lot harder to do, especially when one may have had a lot vested in their property (whether emotional or financial). My opinion is that this whole proposed hospital seems to be only about money, NOT the residents of Ashburn, let alone Broadlands.

[shamrox]

quote:Originally posted by vweisenburg

You still haven't told me why you are opposed to the hospital other than you live across from it and don't want it. Other than that reason, what FACT based opposition do you have to the hospital?



1. You are right, I haven't told you my reasons, nor do I feel a need to.
2. I don't need FACTS to oppose something. You want the hospital...is that based on some FACTS?
3. I have to agree with Farscape. When I bought my house here, I was told the land was zoned for a 3 story, low level office building. I made the decision that I could live with that in close proximity to my home. Then Terrabrook and HCA back door this hospital and wonder why everyone (opps, a verbal minority) are pissed off. Well guess what, we were lied too.
I could go on and on, but I have no need to waste time or words here.

Support what you want VW, but don't fault anyone else for opposing.

Lastly, Farscape is right again. It's all about money. Terrabrook couldn't unload that chunk of land in this current market to anyone looking to build the zoned type of offices. And they have HCA drooling over it, it makes perfect sense for them. Doesn't make sense for me.

[vweisenburg]

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion on the hospital. I have some good friends in here who are opposed, that is their right. My issue has been the disingenuous nature of the positions of some of those who oppose the hospital. If your only reason is you don't want it across the street then just say so, but there have been very few here who were willing to take that stand. For the past year we have heard that the hospital will: unleash an army of mental patients to terrorize our neighborhood, create streets of speeding ambulances to run over our children, bring in helicopters that might crash into our houses, drive down property values, become a toxic waste site, HCA will steal all of our money, etc... None of which is either accurate or true.

Can we please stop wishing that some magical moment will occur and the property will be down zoned and turned into a park? That is unbelievably unrealistic. This property is and always has been zoned for by right development of several 6 story office buildings, not a strip mall, not a nature preserve, not an amusement park. That is the reality we have to deal with. I have lived here for 7 1/2 years and I knew from the first moment we moved here what the possibilities were for that parcel. If you were lied to by the builder (and you probably were), I am truly sorry, but we have to deal with what we have and since Eastern Loudoun is in desperate need of a new hospital it makes more sense to put it here.

By the way, I do not work for HCA or am in any way affiliated with HCA. All I am is a father who has sat in the emergency room at LHC for 7 hours on a weekend because there were far too many patients. I am a father who is tired of having to take myself, wife and child to Fairfax or Fair Oaks because LHC has neither the equipment nor expertise to deal with moderate to critical healthcare issues. What I want is a state of the art hospital in eastern Loudoun and this is our best chance to get just that.

[shamrox]

Then what is needed is LHC to improve itself or add another hospital to Lo. Co. What is not needed is a hospital dropped inside of our neighborhood.
I don't wish the property to be zoned a park. I know it won't happen, know it was never intended for that. That's not really the issue.
'bout all i have to say for now.

[Homer Simpson]

LCHS was denied beds by the Richmond establishment. The crowding is not LHCS' fault but Richmonds. For some reason they don't want us to have easy access to health care up here. Maybe someone should form a PAC.

Wishing wont make the downzoning happen but public pressure on Scott York would. But I do think that lot will be vacant for a long time if a Hospital is not built due to the current economic conditions. AOL/Worldcomm campus isn't even half full. No one in their right mind would build a huge corporate campus at this time.

The fact is that the previous HCA establishment was corrupt and we don't know that the current establishment is or isn't. I really don't think a hospital would generate more noise than an office park. Last night I hear a fire engine at least three times due to the storm, that's no different than an ambulance. I just want the property used in a way that benefits the neighborhood in a manner that is consistent with the image that Broadlands portrays on their website and Nature Center.

[vacliff]

Hi-
A couple of responses:
First to SHAMROX: You go into a heated response about someone's opinion about those that oppose the hospital. You then get derogatory yourself in your comment " I'm guessing you and HCACliff don't live within eyeshot of the site." For the record, I work for the FAA, not HCA. I am also a resident member of the Broadlands HOA
Board.

Secondly, regarding your comment "I live directly across from the proposed site and I certainly don't want this hospital." There is a resident DIRECTLY across from the entrance to the hospital that supports it. He did considerable research before reaching his decision. If his house is closer to the entrance should his opinion count more than yours?

If you, or anyone else doesn't want the hospital built regardless of any "facts" or "opinions" that is your right. I believe what VWEISENBURG was referring to is the large number of false concerns and rumors that were being spread to instigate fear from residents that was not warranted. The opponents of the hospital hope this fear will result in other people deciding to oppose it as well.

To HOMER SIMPSON: Yes, the marketing to potential residents points out the things that will sell houses. But if you look at the plan for the whole community, there is a significant amount of land dedicated to COMMERCIAL uses. Many potential uses zoned for commercial property could have, in my opinion, far far greater negative impacts to the community than a hospital could have.

Also, regarding your comment "I just want the property used in a way that benefits the neighborhood in a manner that is consistent with the image that Broadlands portrays on their website and Nature Center." Given that this is a Commercially zoned property, a hospital that provides health care to the residents of Broadlands is far more in keeping to that image than an office park, or other possible uses for that site.

[Donna]

It still is interesting that those who are against this issue are spreading false information to gain support and those that are for are simply telling the truth. We have arrived at our decisions the same way you have... based also on research, speaking with people in various communitys, members of all hospitals involved and reading articles pertaining to this issue and other issues that will impact a hospital community. I don't feel We need to defend the information that I and others have shared, simply because our views don't agree with yours. We have never said we are fighting this to keep it woods and a parcel that wont be built on. We would like it to be what it was originally planned to be... an office complex. By the way whatever happened to Marilyn Tavenner. Why is there a "new face" to HCA here in Broadlands. Also whatever happened to Tom Delasandro from Terrabrook?

[GCyr]

Donna,

At the BRMC task force meeting you attended, you mentioned an incinerator that would be built with BRMC as a one reason for not wanting the hospital in our community (e.g., toxic smoke in our neighborhoods). You stated the incinerator was included in the HCA COPN application which surprised the HCA folks who were not aware of this, but you insisted it was in their application. You also told us that you would find this reference in their application and tell us where it was located. I was never able to locate this information in their application and HCA later informed us it was not included in their application because they never intended to build an incinerator.

Could you tell me where the incinerator information is located in the HCA COPN application so I can read up on this? Or, is this one of the facts based on research that you mentioned?

Greg


quote:Originally posted by Donna

It still is interesting that those who are against this issue are spreading false information to gain support and those that are for are simply telling the truth. We have arrived at our decisions the same way you have... based also on research, speaking with people in various communitys, members of all hospitals involved and reading articles pertaining to this issue and other issues that will impact a hospital community.

[Donna]

Greg, If you recall I clarified that. What I currently find interesting is the rumor of HCAs attempt to solicite support by hiring a telemarketing company to do phone surveys to garnish support from Broadlands residents. The funny thing is that not many residents have elected to answer HCAs questions. Wouldn't it be ironic if HCA started soliciting support from our community by offering goods and services to Broadlands residents. Maybe HCA is so worried about the lack of support they have here in Broadlands that maybe they'll offer to pay our tolls, cut our lawns and walk our dogs. Who knows what they are willing to do to try to get community support. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[GCyr]

Donna,

Sorry, I don't remember you clarifing that. I'm not saying you didn't--just that I don't recall. How did you clarify that?

Greg

[vacliff]

As far as I know, Marilyn Tavenner is still gainfully employed by HCA. I believe she represents HCA for the mid-atlantic region. Tom Delasandro has not worked for Terrabrook for several months. He's managing a huge planned community outside of Houston.

As far as facts bearing out the concerns of the hospital nay sayers,
where are the facts that have been gathered that show that the hospital will: generate more traffic, cause property values to decline, increase crime in the neighborhood, hospitals make bad neighbors, etc? My research has shown otherwise, and I have previously posted the source of my facts.

I would love for HCA to pay my tolls and cut my lawn. Good idea!

[Donna]

Cliff you seem to be missing the whole point...we just don't want the hospital here. Our reasons vary as to why but we just don't want it. It was never told to us when we were buying and currently is not being told to new prospective homeowners. As for HCA buying support...Why does HCA think they have to buy support to build here. Does HCA have such a low opinion and little respect for Braodlands residents that they think our support can be gained with a short term public relations gimmick. If they can't win support based on their history and the so called support they have here they shouldnt try to gain it by opening their coffers and buying their way into this community. If such a thing is happening.

[Homer Simpson]

Some links:

http://www.seattlepress.com/print-289.html

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/health/access_columbia_hca.html

[killer_bee]

I am new to the Forums (but not new to Broadlands), and I thought this hospital idea was dead. HCA obviously cannot take "no" for an answer. With a perfectly good and brand new (and not-for-profit) hospital a few miles down the road, why do we need big business HCA in our neighborhood? It makes no sense.

Also, I have worked in healthcare all of my life (not for HCA or Loudoun Hospital, I might say...) and have spent considerable time in the field of behavioral healthcare with adolescents. I have read the articles and posts stating that the mental health unit will not be "so bad" because it will now only serve youths and adolescents. Oh, that is rich -- the people who say that never have seen a mental health unit for adolesents! What makes you think that having a psychotic and aggressive teenager preying on our neighborhood is much better than an adult? Even if the patients do not escape from the hospital (oh, they will!), then the patients will be in our neighborhood, interacting with our kids. Is that the kind of influence we want to welcome with open arms? Also, if you think that the vandalism is bad in the Broadlands now (lots of thanks to Terrabrook and the HOA for doing so much to control that!!!), what till you have a mental health unit open up...

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[vweisenburg]

Killer Bee, let me give you some more info so you understand the entire issue.

1. There is a multi-acre mental health facility already in the proffers for Broadlands. This has to be built whether or not the hospital is built. We can have a more secure hospital-based facility or a stand-alone mental health facility. That is the choice. There will be a mental health facility here one way or another.

2. I can't believe you are seriously suggesting that metal patients will increase vandalism. What statistics are you basing this on?

3. Again, no one is downplaying the potential problems with a mental health facility and I am sure most of us would rather not have it at all, but since it will be built here hospital or no hosptial, I for one would rather see it combined with a hospital that we need and that will be more secure.

4. Loudoun is hardly state-of-the-art. There are many parents in Broaldlands who have children with special mdeical needs that are forced to go to Fair Oaks or Fairfax because Loudoun lacks the equipment or expertise to handle them. Loudoun is a capable community hospital, but what we need in addition to LCH is a hospital that can provide more advanced care, especially for children.

[killer_bee]

VW: Thanks for the information. I cannot say that you changed my perspective, though I still appreciate the information.

I might not know all of the legalities of proffers, but I doubt that just because the proffers call for the building of something that it means that they must be built. I am sure that, with enough vocal opposition, those proffers--if they do exist--can be undone. That is the nice thing about a democracy.

About vandalism, all I am saying is that the HOA and Terrabrook cannot control vandalism as it stands right now. Do you think that they can? While I cannot produce a scientific study showing that mental health units increase vandalism, can you show they do not?[?]

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[SK8R]

"More advanced care, especially for children"? Ha, ha, ha. ha!
This HCA hospital is not going to be a "children's hospital" and there is nothing this hospital will have that LHC does not have. Please, stop hallucinating about this place.
MORE people are against this hospital than just the majority of Broadlands residents. If you think that a piddly few people here in Broadlands that are FOR the hospital are going to make a difference and think a few voices are going to make this hospital come here, forget about it.
There is a county wide effort against this hospital and you peeps are dreaming.
This hospital does not belong here.

[Farscape]

vweisenburg: I was wondering where you can get information on the proffers for Broadlands (or any area for that matter). Being a relatively new home owner (2-years), this is something I was unaware of. I must say, I am more than disappointed to hear that a multi-acre mental health facility is already slated for Broadlands. Do you know when this was decided? Why would Broadlands be slated for this as opposed to other areas?

In “researching” Broadlands, before deciding to buy a house, I did not see any information readily available that stated there was a multi-acre mental health facility slated for Broadlands. The first that I have heard about it is your thread on this forum. Is there anything else that would be good to research before deciding to live in an area?

[vweisenburg]

Farscape:

When we moved here in 1996, on the master site plan there was a designated community services/senior housing area. I asked what was going into that parcel and was told that part of it was slated to be a mental health facility (I want to say I was told 5 acres but I am not 100% sure about the number).

I am not exactly sure where you would get the info on paticular proffers. Cliff, do you have any specifics on that?

[SK8R]

Yes, it was only 5 acres. We moved here in '96 too. Terrabrook did not own all of that property to begin with.
I have an old plan of the community. It shows a "senior housing area".

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by SK8R


This hospital does not belong here.


That is the best statement that I have seen in this forum. Right on.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[Farscape]

vweisenburg, SK8R- thank you for the information.

[volvo_nut]

We are settling on our new home on Aug 27th. This should have been disclosed and not buried in the two novels of HOA docs, if it is in there at all. Why not have this facility on the LCH campus?

[Donna]

:)I am glad to say our website is up and running. It is a little different from our first site, but once the kinks get worked out it will be great. www.notinbroadlands.com. Thanks again for the interest in getting it started again. Donna Fortier

[GCyr]

Look up the registration info for the new anti-hospital web site. The Registrant is "The Anti-Hospital Minority." So, guess they must be conceding the majority of the community is for the hospital or pro-hospital...

[Donna]

Greg, that was a joke. We were only quoting what the HCA supporters have been saying. We are very comfortable knowing we are the majority.

[vacliff]

Regarding the parcel for "mental health services":
To correct SK8R, this parcel has always been part of Broadlands. It is located to the east of the Safeway center, north of Broadlands Blvd. The best place to find information about various proffers is at the county office.
There is a 5 acre parcel slated for library/mental health services.
There is also a senior center slated for this section, as well as a fire and rescue station.
Terrabrook currently has a rezoning application that would eliminate these proffers and convert the parcel to patio homes on private streets. They have requested moving the fire and rescue station to a parcel east of the Southern Walk pool. The mental health/library/senior center proffers would disappear.

Regarding "polling the community":
The HOA had planned to do so prior to any county hearings on the hospital issue. Since HCA's application was denied at the state level, we did not pursue it. If the "new" hospital application receives state approval, we will conduct a poll of the residents.
We will probably send out a mailer, with a postpaid reply card, asking residents their opinion on the hospital proposal. It will cost a few thousand dollars to do.

Regarding vandalism:
Yes, it's a problem now and will most likely continue to get worse, hospital or not. Terrabrook has no "responsibilty" for it and neither does the HOA. I've spoken to the Sheriff Simpson about the issue and he does not have the manpower to provide more protection to our area. The HOA is considering hiring private security to patrol the community. For two armed officers with arrest authority the cost is $70/hour. This would equate to $9 a month per resident increase in the HOA dues. This would help, but not eliminate vandalism.

As far as vandalism around mental health facilities, I have done the following: contacted the Loudoun County sheriff's office to determine if there is any type of increased criminal activity around current hospital/mental health facilities. Their response was "No".
I have spoken to a Broadlands resident who, as a Fairfax county sheriff's deputy, patrolled the community where Dominion Hospital is located in Falls Church. He also stated that they did not have criminal activity issues with that facility.
I don't know if this is what would satisfy Killer Bee as scientific, but it is far more than anybody, either for or against the hospital, has done to try to get to the facts and truth on this issue.
Cliff

[Donna]

Cliff, I'm sorry to have to correct you however I too have made phone calls to the police and went and spoke to previous employees of Dominion hospital. I have talked with other law enforcement agencies concerning increased criminal activity around mental health facilities. The answers I received are obviously different from yours. I guess it depends how you phrase the question, and how much you really want to know and how far you're willing to follow up. I also found out through my investigations that there is an increase when it comes to escapes, resident uproars ( or in house fights, arson, stealing, etc) neighborhood break-ins/peepings etc. Of course current employees are not going to be the ones to tell you what really goes on, they have a lot to lose, past employees have nothing to lose and tell you a great deal. I don't think its fair for you to assume you have done more research than anyone else on this issue for or against the hospital. You have no idea how much time, energy, meetings and phone calls I and other people opposed to the hopsital have made during the first go around. If you do a "Google" search I think you'll find that the facts speak for themselves.

[sunnydog]

"If you do a "Google" search I think you'll find that the facts speak for themselves."

You get more than facts on a web search. You get a lot of propaganda and disinformation on any topic that you search on. And, as you suggest, it also depends on how you phrase your inquiries and how much you really want to know.

I don't have an opinion on the hospital either way at this point, but am suspicious of what I consider specious "investigations" by both sides representing their issues.

[vacliff]

Donna, if you have information that differs from mine, I would appreciate your sharing it. I initially opposed this application. Early on, I received a lot of information from you regarding your opposition to this project. As I looked into the "facts" you supplied, I found many that appeared to be untrue.
You, and others, have every right to oppose this hospital and support LHC. If reasons are going to be given to try and get others to support your position, these reasons should have some basis of fact and not just be inflammatory. It's easy to get people to "fear the unknown" rather than present the reality.
I'll give a few quick examples:

Helicopter noise: Arguments were given that we would have helicopters buzzing the neighborhood causing a lot of noise.
Myself, and another resident HOA Board member tried to get the "facts" on this issue. We spoke to Reston and Loudoun hospitals, a helicopter pilot, and the MedEvac servie that operates the helicopters in this area. The hospitals average 1-2 trips per week, piots tend to follow major roadways, and the helipad wil be located behind the building in the corner of the Greenway and Rte 659. After presenting these facts, few people still cite this as a concern.
I wonder how many residents are aware a helicopter landed in Broadlands a few weeks ago when a child was hit by a car? The HOA did not receive any complaints that I'm aware of.

Traffic: The hospital will cause increaed traffic and congestion.
An independent traffic study has already been conducted. It clearly indicated that the hospital will generate less traffic than an office park on that site. The results of this study are available if anyone else would like to see it.
You were at the Broadlands Hospital Task Force meeting where this information was presented, yet still cited "traffic" as one of your main concerns for opposing the hospital. The argument that the traffic generated by the hospital is more traffic than the undeveloped site now generates is, in my opinion, disingenuous at best.
I imagine you and I simply won't view "facts" the same way.

[Donna]

Cliff, a fact is a fact, it's interpretation is what varies.

Regardless of what our reasons are for not supporting this hospital it will significantly change the atmosphere of our community. I know that what I have shared over the past year was accurate and based on information I either received from reliable sources or on research I did myself. HCA knows, during several conversations I have personnally had with them, that we would support their efforts to build in Loudon if they located themselves somewhere that makes sense. If they need to be in planning district 8 then they need to serve people that do not have the same choices (within close proximity to Reston, Fairfax, Loudon, Fair OAks) that we in Ashburn/Broadlands do.

It has been brought up several times that many of the posters who support this proposal currently do not live here, or live far enough away not to be directly impacted. You and others can try to discredit our efforts however you feel neccessary but it will not stop our opposition.

As far as the traffic issue goes, HCA should think about relocating because if "the busiest ER" in Northern Virginia generates less traffic than an office park which is only open 9-5 Mon -Fri (not 24/7)then they will probably end up losing money because their patient load will be too small and their stock holders will not be happy. Indication of this is M.F.S a once major stock holder no longer holds any of HCA stock.

If, when all the phases HCA is proposing are done (and I believe there are 3), and this is to be the "busiest ER" I can not imagine that the helicopters are always going to be able to follow major roads, and even if they do aren't Clairborne Pakway, Broadlands Blvd, Rt 659, etc. major roads? They certainly are considered major by the ADC map company. What do you consider a major road...The toll road?

If you recall, you have said that ambulance protocol was to turn off lights and sirens when riding thru a neighborhood, that wasn't the cause a couple of weeks ago when the house in our neighborhood was struck by lightening.

If you are going to state any contradictary comments to what I and others believe then I do insist that the information you are attempting to provide in contradiction be true and accurate.

If HCA is so secure in the knowledge of the support they have here I cant believe they wouldn't fund an independant community survey.

I am still waiting for an answer pertaining to the HCA proposal to "assist" the broadlands committees in purchasing they're "wish list" items. I guess purchasing items is a great way to gain support for thier side. I believe HCA requested this "wish list" by October. Can I add something to the HCA "wish list"...GO AWAY.(And that won't cost a thing).

[hornerjo]

Well I can't speak for the other committees, but the Tech Committee (formerly web committee) declined the HCA offer due to conflicts in interest (as a committee we will not choose a side so to speak).

---------------
Got Broadband?

[shamrox]

quote:Originally posted by vacliff


I wonder how many residents are aware a helicopter landed in Broadlands a few weeks ago when a child was hit by a car? The HOA did not receive any complaints that I'm aware of.


I heard it.
Cliff, why would anyone complain to the HOA that a helicopter responded to an accident?? I guess you are insinuating that all of the HCA opposition would complain about any and everything now???

You are confusing this issue. I personally don't want helicopters routinely landing in close proximity to my house (the HCA helipad). Landing choppers make plenty of noise. The one your are referring to landed on Belmont Ridge, much further away than the planned helipad. I had no problems hearing the chopper. Do I want this on a daily basis? NO.
Let's stick to the real issues here.

[vweisenburg]

Ok. Maybe I a missing something here. Do we not live near Dulles airport? Am I the only one who hears at least 4 or 5 planes a day? So you are going to be bothered by the noise of one or two helicopter landings? Whatever, you all will think of anything to stop this hospital. Next someone will come up with a statistic that shows the xray equipment in the hospital will decrease the SAT scores of all the children in Broadlands by 25 points.

For those of you who are against the hospital based on legitimate facts, though I may diasgree with you at least I can respect your position. The rest of you who continue to use ridiculous excuses like helicopter noise, ambulance noise, or all of the other petty reasons you put forth to stop the hospital, not only do I disagree with you, but I have no respect for your position.

For those of you who are reading this and are still undecided, just take a look back through this forum and see which side has been open and honest in the debate. Maybe that will help you figure out which direction to go.

[shamrox]

VWEISENBURG:
Yeah, you are missing something alright. Those planes from Dulles are up about 2000+ feet or more. Helicopters landing in Broadlands are at 300ft and less and make plenty more noise. So don't tell me I have a ridiculus excuse. I'm sick and tired of your rebutals and care even less what you think of my reasons for not wanting this hospital.

I don't give an damn if I have your respect or not. And I'm done with this forum as a whole, because instead of arguing with you, whose opinion on the matter I care not about, I will focus my efforts on beating HCA.

One last comment, you tell people to look back and see which side is being open and honest. 1. You haven't heard a dishonest word from my mouth, and I'm fully open about how I feel. and 2. HCA backers like yourself only want to cut down and mock any and all reasons opposing the hospital. &lt;&lt;comment removed by moderator&gt;&gt;

quote:Originally posted by vweisenburg

ridiculous excuses like helicopter noise, ambulance noise, or all of the other petty reasons you put forth to stop the hospital

[vweisenburg]

Nice. Not once did I say I had no respect for you only for your arguement, nor have I ever attacked anyone here personally. I don't appreciate the tone or language in your message.

[vweisenburg]

As far as helicopter noise - I work on a military base and we have helicopters that are far larger and louder than any that would be flying into the hospital and they fly overhead at about 100ft and land no more than 400 yards away. The planes that take off and fly over my house some evenings are louder than the helicopters at my work, so they are absolutely louder than the helicopters that will be flying into the hospital.

[joy]

Since the most recent posts here seem mostly to be from people on one extreme or the other on this issue, I thought it might be helpful if a "neutral - leaning toward no" opinion chimed in.

My only reason for being at all pro-hospital are:
1) my personal not-great experiences with Loudoun HC.
2) nice to have emergency medical care as close as possible.

My reasons for being against are:
1) HCA's main reason for locating in the Broadlands is that we are an affluent community. They want to move to an area where they don't have to worry about uninsured patients so they can MAKE LOTS OF MONEY. I felt this way from my first hearing about their desire to move to ASHBURN -- not even knowing it was Broadlands they were looking at.
2) Somewhat tied to number one, the proposed site is located ridiculously close to an existing hospital. If HCA really wanted to serve Loudoun County, they would be looking to locate further south and/or west.
3) Hospitals bring in a bad element. This one is often ridiculed by the pro-hospital side. Anyone hear about the guy accidentally shot by his roommate, who while being driven to the hospital by his roommate, crashed and then walked (gunshot wound and all) the rest of the way to LHC? See the Sheriff's Press Release at: http://inetdocs.loudoun.gov/sheriff/docs/newsreleases_/081803sterlingm/office2k/office2k.htm. Everyone who's ever been to an ER has seen people you wouldn't want to be around normally. When they arrive, they will be arriving through Broadlands. When they leave, they leave through Broadlands. Of course we have our own bad element already, as seen through vandalism and other crime. But why purposely attract more?

--Joy

[vweisenburg]

Joy:

Thanks you for at least posting reasons. I am done here with this forum. Yes I am pro-hospital and have spent my efforts to rebut many of the anti-hospital positions, but that is not to say I don't have concerns about portions of the hospital either. I have just grown tired of the constant arguing and bickering back and forth. At this point I could care less what happens. This issue has polarized what used to be a nice neighborhood.

[chattycat]

...only in America
;)
quote:Originally posted by vweisenburg

Joy:

Thanks you for at least posting reasons. I am done here with this forum. Yes I am pro-hospital and have spent my efforts to rebut many of the anti-hospital positions, but that is not to say I don't have concerns about portions of the hospital either. I have just grown tired of the constant arguing and bickering back and forth. At this point I could care less what happens. This issue has polarized what used to be a nice neighborhood.

[SK8R]

I am pleased that you are tired of it, VW. If you read over your responses in this forum... you have been quite the crabby one.
We all have our opinions and you have a grumpy response for each person that has anything negative against this hospital.
This IS a nice neighborhood. Let's work to keep it this way.
We do not need HCA in here breaking up our community.
I truely hope this hospital does not happen.

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by joy

Since the most recent posts here seem mostly to be from people on one extreme or the other on this issue, I thought it might be helpful if a "neutral - leaning toward no" opinion chimed in.

Thank you for the information, Joy. I had not seen the hospital-related crime report that you posted. That happened right here in Loudoun!!! Needless to say, I found it very informative.

VACLIFF, can I ask you a question? How can people like you want to even RISK bringing a bad element into our community? My opinion is that it is morally irresponsible and reprehensible. If you win and something horrible happens (like a defenseless child or wife is attacked, hurt, or worse...), are you prepared to live with that burden weighing on your soul?

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[Donna]

Hi, please let me kow if you are available to help with this round of signature/petition gathering. I know many of you have asked how you can help...this is one way you can. Thanks, Donna

[vacliff]

Killer Bee-
To answer your question, I do not view a hospital as a "bad element" to the community. Neither do the residents near Lansdowne, Reston, And Fair Oaks hospitals that I have spoken to. My soul will be at peace with the potential for many lives to be saved or improved because a state of the art hospital is a few minutes closer.
Cliff

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by vacliff

My soul will be at peace with the potential for many lives to be saved or improved because a state of the art hospital is a few minutes closer.

Nice to hear. If you, Terrabook, and HCA win out, I am sure you will blame anything bad on something else... Whatever you have to do to sleep at night, I guess.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[WesGurney]

While I am still on the fence about the hospital issue, I must say that this finger pointing at Cliff about patients hurting one of us is outrageous.

killer bee - can we all blame you if the hospital gets rejected and an office park get built and a disgruntled employee goes on a shooting spree? will you be able to sleep?? c'mon....

God forbid any of this happens in the Broadlands, but lets not point fingers at one another - especially a member of the board that WE elected.

Show us some reports and facts that prove areas around hospitals have significantly more crime as compared to a typical office park.

[trb]

Does anyone out there know if Loudoun Hospital ever looked into expanding further west in the county, beyond Leesburg?

[killer_bee]

Facts? This is a simple as 2+2=4. If you bring the mentally unstable into our community, then there is a chance that something could go (horribly) wrong. Call me crazy, but I don't like taking chances with our kids lives.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[jtarnow]

Here we go again with the hyperbolic rhetoric. From what I have seen, the mental services portion of HCA's original plan never proposed having "mentally unstable" people in our community! The mental health services would have been for eating disorders, depression, anxiety, and other 'every day' mental health issues that, statistically speaking, are [u]already present</u> within [u]any</u> large community. To echo others in this forum, can we [u]PLEASE</u> end the scare tactics and focus on facts?


quote:Originally posted by killer_bee

Facts? This is a simple as 2+2=4. If you bring the mentally unstable into our community, then there is a chance that something could go (horribly) wrong. Call me crazy, but I don't like taking chances with our kids lives.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[killer_bee]

JT: Re-read my message. It is not scare tactics. It is just reality. I do not like to gamble with safety (mine, yours, or that of our neighbors!), and I am horrified when others are willing to take risks when lives are at stake.

Also, you need to realize that hosptials BY LAW cannot discriminate on treatment, regardless of HCA's reported promises and plans. There is a federal law called EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act). For information (again, information not scare tactics), go to http://www.emtala.com. EMTALA stipulates that hospitals must, in general, stabilize and treat patients who present in their facilities. So, if you get an HCA hospital, which seems to be your wish, you will have to deal with this element in our community.

I am sorry that you would label the truth a scare tactic. Sometimes people are scared to confront the reality of their actions. I am just pointing our what supporting this hospital ACTUALLY means. I am saddened to see the risks people are willing to take with the safety of others.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[trb]

I think jtarnow has it right, and based on your concern for safety killer_bee, you should probably stay inside.

What it ACTUALLY means - a very conservative estimate, based only on one person for each of the households settled (approx. 2,200) in Broadlands, could have you running into the following people in the neighborhood:

209 with a depressive disorder
26 with bipolar
24 schizophrenics
293 with an anxiety disorder (Anxiety disorders include panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and phobias (social phobia, agoraphobia, and specific phobia)

Not including:
ADHD - 4.1 % of youths 9-17
Anorexia or bulimia .5 to 4.2% of females

And the general fact that an estimated 22.1 percent of Americans ages 18 and older—(about 484 in this example)—suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.

Here's the link for the facts I used:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm

Even more important, I think everyone talking about the "mentally unstable" or "imbalanced" or "bad element", or other negative terminology for mental illness might benefit from the following site:
http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/stigma/default.asp

From their opening page...
Know me as a person not by my mental illness
We are your friends, neighbors, and family.
We improve and recover.
We are major contributors to American life.
We deserve dignity and respect

[killer_bee]

TRB: Your data are scary enough, so can you tell me WHY you want to increase the number by having a psychiatric ward across the street from Broadland homes???

As I said before, nobody is truly worried about a mildly depressive mom or a teen who has the blues about who to go to the prom with. Hospitals cannot turn away the criminally insane! They must treat them. Just read EMTALA. I gave the links above.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[Donna]

Please try to attend the HCA/HSA meeting being held Monday, September 8, at 7:30 p.m. at Heritage Hunt High School. ( the school is just outside of Leesburg). It is vital to show the decision makers we are still against HCA's plan. You can sign up to speak to the HSA (health Systems Agency) panel. This might be our last/best opportunity to speak publicly. Keep in mind these members send their recommendations down to Richmond for the final decsison.

[vacliff]

Killer_Bee-
Your ignorance is astounding. I would ask that you please make even a MINIMAL attempt to get ANY facts that support your inflamatory, irrational, and utterly false statements.
Criminally insane!?!?! This hospital will not be licensed for, and cannot deal with, the criminally insane and DO NOT treat them. There are two state hospital facilities that deal with the "criminally insane". But hey, it is a free country and you can say what you want. Just don't yell "FIRE" in a movie theatre.
Also, you completely miss TRB's point: People with these conditions SURROUND YOU right now, and these are the types of conditions primarily treated at Dominion Hospital. I know....I've visited there and the doctors have attended numerous meetings here in Broadlands and spoken to numerous residents here about this issue.
Maybe with the hospital here, your friends and neighbors will get treatment and not be the evil threat you want us to believe they are.
Cliff

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by vacliff

This hospital will not be licensed for, and cannot deal with, the criminally insane and DO NOT treat them. There are two state hospital facilities that deal with the "criminally insane".

VACLIFF, will you please, please, please read the text of the federal EMTALA regulations (wich require hospitals to treat all patients)? My gosh! Is that too much to ask from someone who rants and raves about wanting people to post only the "facts"?

EMTALA clearly states that a hospital MUST TREAT ANY PERSON WHO WALKS IN ITS DOORS!

I will not stoop to mud-slinging by labeling you ignorant as you have done to me. That is beneath me. You ask for people to be respectful in this forum, and then you really show your true colors.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[SK8R]

The meeting is at HERITAGE HIGH SCHOOL and that school is located on
Evergreen Mill Road SE it is very easy to get to. If you need directions, call the school at 669-1400

[vacliff]

Killer_Bee-
I did not mean to imply you were an ignorant person. If you took it as a personal insult, I truly apologize. I used the word ignorance to imply "lack of knowledge" regarding that post. I'm aware of the quidelines, and I am aware of requirements to treat people at hospitals. If someone is brought in, they would be treated and stabilized. If criminal activity was involved, they are handled with appropriate security measures (sheriff escort, lock down, etc.)
They are not dumped off, left alone, then kicked out the door into the community as has been implied.
If someone was "criminally insane" they would be removed from the facility under the appropriate security measures and moved to a state facility. Can you point to ONE case at any of the hospitals around here where residents were put at risk from someone at the hospital?
I again apologize for insulting you. I will try to do another reread of my posts before submitting them and try to use words more carefully.
Cliff

[GCyr]

Killer_Bee,

OK, I read the EMTALA. The EMTALA deals with emergency care for medical patients, not mental patients, so what's your point with reading the EMTALA?

In fact if you search the www.cms.hhs.gov website for EMTALA, you'll find an EMTALA Update presentation that states there is "nothing specific in regulations" for "psychiatric patients."

So, what's the fact?


quote:Originally posted by killer_bee

[quote]Originally posted by vacliff
VACLIFF, will you please, please, please read the text of the federal EMTALA regulations (wich require hospitals to treat all patients)? My gosh! Is that too much to ask from someone who rants and raves about wanting people to post only the "facts"?

EMTALA clearly states that a hospital MUST TREAT ANY PERSON WHO WALKS IN ITS DOORS!

I will not stoop to mud-slinging by labeling you ignorant as you have done to me. That is beneath me. You ask for people to be respectful in this forum, and then you really show your true colors.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by GCyr

EMTALA deals with emergency care for medical patients, not mental patients, so what's your point with reading the EMTALA? So, what's the fact?

GCyr: You may not be a healthcare professional, so I can see your confusion. Under EMTALA, if a hospital offers psychiatric services, it must stabilize/treat ANY patient who presents with a psychiatric condition/emergency. Also, when the presentation that you referred to states "nothing specific in regulations for psychiatric patients," it means that there are no special exceptions for treating psychiatric patients. So, your beloved proposed hospital would need to treat ANY psychiatric patient who showed up!


killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[jtarnow]

I don't know the in's and out's of the EMTALA, although as an attorney I will soon look it up. The point is that treating a 'mental patient' who shows up now and then is FAR different from what the anti-hospital group has been portraying as a full-scale "psycho ward" (and I use that somewhat offensive term reluctantly) with patients who might "escape" into our pristine neighborhood. These are the scare tactics that have characterized the anti-hospital propaganda, and which I decry.

quote:Originally posted by killer_bee

quote:Originally posted by GCyr

EMTALA deals with emergency care for medical patients, not mental patients, so what's your point with reading the EMTALA? So, what's the fact?

GCyr: You may not be a healthcare professional, so I can see your confusion. Under EMTALA, if a hospital offers psychiatric services, it must stabilize/treat ANY patient who presents with a psychiatric condition/emergency. Also, when the presentation that you referred to states "nothing specific in regulations for psychiatric patients," it means that there are no special exceptions for treating psychiatric patients. So, your beloved proposed hospital would need to treat ANY psychiatric patient who showed up!


killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[killer_bee]

quote:Originally posted by vacliff

Killer_Bee-If you took it as a personal insult, I truly apologize.

VACLIFF: Thank you.

killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[GCyr]

Is that a fact or your assumpition? I would agree that anyone with a medical health condition would have to be treated, with or without a mental condition.

If I might ask, what is your position as a healthcare professional?


quote:Originally posted by killer_bee

[quote]Originally posted by GCyr
GCyr: You may not be a healthcare professional, so I can see your confusion. Under EMTALA, if a hospital offers psychiatric services, it must stabilize/treat ANY patient who presents with a psychiatric condition/emergency. Also, when the presentation that you referred to states "nothing specific in regulations for psychiatric patients," it means that there are no special exceptions for treating psychiatric patients. So, your beloved proposed hospital would need to treat ANY psychiatric patient who showed up!


killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia

[Stephanie]

I have not read all about the EMTALA law mentioned above (it looked it was over 500 ages--who has time?!?), but I had a nice long talk last night with a girlfriend from college who is now a nurse at Riverside Hospital in Newport News (VA).

I asked her if hospitals had to treat patients (including psychiatric patients) who just walked in. She said YES! Then she said, "What are we supposed to say? "You're crazy, go somewhere else?" She said that hospitals have a legal (and ethical) responsibility to treat anyone who shows up with a health-related emergency--medical, psychiatric, etc.

[GCyr]

Stephanie & Killer_Bee,

I found the following definition in section 489.24(b) of the EMTALA reg:

"Emergency medical condition means--
(i) A medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain, [u]psychiatric disturbances</u> and/or symptoms of substance abuse) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in--..." [lists the health consequences]

So, I stand corrected.

Not that I think anything about this definition will change, but CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) is scheduled to publish its long-awaited revisions to EMTALA regulations in the Federal Register September 9, 2003.

[Farscape]

It does not really matter whether there is a 'threat' due to the mental facility or not. There is an already existing hospital 5-miles down the road. There does not need to be one here. It makes no sense to put a hospital right next to another one.

[sunnydog]

and it makes no sense to build another grocery store/movie rental/asian food building within 1 mile of another.
and it makes no sense to build a gas station within 1 mile in each direction.
and it makes no sense to build another school next to another one.

supply and demand drive the need for all of these facilities.
there is sufficient demand for improved convenience and access to healthcare, movies, asian food, smaller classes and gas even though facilities already exist in our community.

that is why developers continue to build them. god bless capitalism.

[jtarnow]

Well stated, sunnydog!

[trb]

Interesting - a few more studies and/or statistics that I found would indicate that the opposition to the hospital because of a fear of violence from those with mental illness coming to the neighborhood is misdirected. The greater danger is what the ABC store will bring.......

"Violence in society
Contribution of mental illness is low

As increasing numbers of mentally ill patients have been treated and reside in the community, public concern about their potential for violence has increased. Fear and stigma of mentally ill people have been exaggerated by high profile and occasionally sensationalist reporting of rare, albeit tragic, violent acts.1

Are people with mental illness more violent than other people? An influential German study published in 1973 led to the belief that people with mental disorder were no more likely to be violent than the general population.2 This view remained unchallenged until the late 1980s. The best epidemiological data on violence and mental disorder come from the American ECA (epidemiologic catchment area) study.3 Self reported violence in the past year was measured among a representative community sample of 10 059 individuals. The prevalence of violence in people with no psychiatric disorder was 2%, and it was much higher in young men. Violence was reported in 8% of people with schizophrenia.

People with alcohol (24%) or drug misuse or dependence disorders (34%) presented the highest risk....."

http://bmj.com/cgi/reprint/325/7363/507.pdf

Driving Under the Influence of Alcohol

About 1 in 7 Americans aged 12 or older in 2002 (14.2 percent, or 33.5 million persons) drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the 12 months prior to the interview.

Males were nearly twice as likely as females (18.8 vs. 9.9 percent, respectively) to have driven under the influence of alcohol.

More than 1 in 4 (26.6 percent) young adults aged 18 to 25 reported driving under the influence of alcohol at least once in the prior year.

The level of alcohol use was strongly associated with illicit drug use in 2002. Among the 15.9 million heavy drinkers aged 12 or older, 32.6 percent were current illicit drug users.

http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/NHSDA/2k2NSDUH/Results/2k2results.htm#chap3

[GCyr]

Some other studies on mental health and violence can be found at the following sites:

http://aspin.asu.edu/hpn/archives/Jan98/0272.html

Subject:
Subject: Debunking "mental illness"/violence myth: Consensus Statement

"[This Consensus Statement was published in an article titled "Violence By People With Mental Illness: A Consensus Statement By Advocates and Researchers", by John Monahan and Jean Arnold, Psychiatric Rehabilitation Journal, Spring 1996, vol.19, no.4. As of 1996, this important demystifying statement was signed by over 41 lawyers, advocates, psychiatric survivor-activists, and mental health professionals including some psychiatrists."


http://www.sante-canada.net/hppb/mentalhealth/pubs/mental_illness/index.htm

Subject:
Mental Illness and Violence: Proof or Stereotype?

Two of the key findings (there are more):
· "The strongest predictor of violence and criminality is past history of violence and criminality. This was true regardless of diagnostic group (e.g., whether schizophrenia or substance abuse).
· As yet, there is no consistent evidence to support the hypothesis that mental illness (e.g., depression) that is uncomplicated by substance abuse is a significant risk factor for violence or criminality, once past history of violence is controlled. "


http://www.cmha-bc.org/content/resources/primer/38-violence.pdf

Subject:
Mental Disorders, Addictions, and the Question of Violence

Similar findings to above Canadian study.

[Farscape]

sunnydog:
I don't know about everybody else, but I generally go to the supermarket about 1/week. Gas stations- I get gas at least 2-3 times/week. Now a hospital- I go to about 1/year-[u]IF</u> that. I think the items you mentioned, such as a video store, a super market, & restaurant etc. are used more times/week then a healthcare facility by any 1 individual.

Basically, there is a bigger need for the stores you listed because they are used consistently every day, buy everyone-not just those with health issues. That is why we need more of them. Try all you want to defend your views-but this really falls short and is just plain ridiculous. I guess this is the only reason you can come up with, simply because there is no clear reason to space out hospitals every 5 frickin’ miles.

There is a whole other half of Loudoun County that is in need of a hospital closer to them then we are. It just makes no sense to put a hospital within 5-miles of another when the other half of Loudoun County still does not have one.

[joy]

All this talk about violence and the mentally ill is pretty moot I think. MY point (way back when) was that Emergency Rooms attract criminals. Now MY point may be just as invalid -- it is only based on 1) watching ER :-) 2) infrequent ER visits 3) police reports. But, I believe from MY experience that is a regular occurrence to visit an ER and see someone who is:
- drunk and disorderly
- a crime suspect
- a gunshot or knife victim
- a gang member

Now, in many of these cases, I'm sure the person is arrested and goes to jail. But, there must be cases where these people (or their friends) leave the hospital on their own. That is MY concern. (IMHO)

--Joy

[Wick]

Where are those drunks, disorderlies, criminals, victims, and gang members coming from? From this area? Maybe - I won't rule it out. If so, isn't the real problem that those types exist in this area in the first place? A new hospital isn't going to attract those types into our pristine community.

On the other hand, if they're not from this area, are they going to have to time to travel all of the way to Ashburn to seek medical attention? In an emergency, is a DC gang member going to drive 30 miles to a hospital in Ashburn? Probably not - he's going to go to a DC hospital. Even in a non-emergency, is a gang member going to drive a long distance to a hospital in a small community like Ashburn? Will he even have the means to travel to Ashburn? Not only that, if he's a real hoodlum, he'll stick out like a sore thumb.

The real issue are the thugs that already live here. That being said, the hospital is NOT going to change that - for better or for worse. The hospital isn't going to result in those thugs calling all of their thug friends and inviting out to Ashburn to check out the hospital. If those people are here, they're already here; and the hospital won't change that.

[joy]

I was thinking of the people who go to LHC now. I assume from Sterling, Ashburn, Leesburg, Purcellville. I'm not sure who BRMC would serve that LHC doesn't, so I think it's fair to say the same places. There is certainly more violent crime in Sterling and Leesburg than Ashburn at this point. That may change (hope not). But even so, I'd rather just have Broadlands' baddies here than Ashburn Village's, Ashburn Farm's, Regency's, Farmwell Hunt's, Brambleton's, ... and Sterling's and Leesburg's.

--Joy

[SK8R]

I agree with Farscape, another hospital here in Ashburn is just ridiculous. Yeah so we have a grocery store on every corner, along with an assortment of other duplicates in every shopping center. Think about it, it is rather sad and tacky that we have this sort of development going on here.... Who are you that you think you need to have every possible amenity at your fingertips when other parts of Loudoun are struggling. Don't tell me that all of the development is here. That is just not true.
HCA wants to be here because they put their $$ into this place and they want to be here where the big money is. They are not going to back out with out a fight. Meanwhile western and Northern Loudoun have to drive out here or go to Fauquier to get to a hospital.
This seems like duh.. dumb planning. Certainly not thinking of the future, just money and how to get it fast.
Go to the meeting tonight and the folks that are for this hospital in Broadlands are going to be very surprized at the desire and need for medical care out west. We don't need it here in Broadlands, really.
Thugs, criminals and drunks in Ashburn? they are already here.

[Homer Simpson]

quote:Originally posted by trb

Interesting - a few more studies and/or statistics that I found would indicate that the opposition to the hospital because of a fear of violence from those with mental illness coming to the neighborhood is misdirected. The greater danger is what the ABC store will bring.......


Puh-lease! There is nothing wrong with the ABC store which will card minors by the way. It's much harder now to get alcohol underage than it was when I was kid in the 80's. You can get just as drunk off of the wine at the Safeway by the way. If there is a problem with drinking and driving it's the parents fault not the ABC stores or Clydes for that matter.

The alcohol drinking community is not going to enlarge b/c of the presence of a new store. It is debatable, however, that the bad element population will increase b/c of a previously non-existing hospital.

And in reference to another post. The element is coming from the Sterling/Herndon area. There is turf war going on between the El Salvodoran gangs. (Did ya see the marks on Wegmans?) The hospital may bring visibilty to this communtiy that did not exist before, therefore increasing the bad element population. I believe the vandalism we are experiencing now is just bored kids.

[trb]

Homer - I don't think you looked at the stats and/or just missed the point:

1. It's not just talking about underage drinking; it's ALL people over 12.

"About 1 in 7 Americans aged 12 or older in 2002 (14.2 percent, or 33.5 million persons) drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the 12 months prior to the interview.

The level of alcohol use was strongly associated with illicit drug use in 2002. Among the 15.9 million heavy drinkers aged 12 or older, 32.6 percent were current illicit drug users."

2. It also doesn't say that the drinking population will increase. The point was simply that with the ABC store there, and as you noted, any place that sells or serves alcohol - even Safeway or Clyde's could be included - will bring people who drink alcohol (None of which I’m saying I’m opposed to).

And by the stats, the odds are greater of having a dangerous drunk driver and/or dug user in the neighborhood because of those establishments, than the odds of having a dangerous person with mental illness because of the hospital.

[Homer Simpson]

quote:Originally posted by trb

Homer - I don't think you looked at the stats and/or just missed the point:

1. It's not just talking about underage drinking; it's ALL people over 12.

"About 1 in 7 Americans aged 12 or older in 2002 (14.2 percent, or 33.5 million persons) drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the 12 months prior to the interview.

The level of alcohol use was strongly associated with illicit drug use in 2002. Among the 15.9 million heavy drinkers aged 12 or older, 32.6 percent were current illicit drug users."

2. It also doesn't say that the drinking population will increase. The point was simply that with the ABC store there, and as you noted, any place that sells or serves alcohol - even Safeway or Clyde's could be included - will bring people who drink alcohol (None of which I’m saying I’m opposed to).

And by the stats, the odds are greater of having a dangerous drunk driver and/or dug user in the neighborhood because of those establishments, than the odds of having a dangerous person with mental illness because of the hospital.



For stats to be credible they have to come from a credible source. MADD is not credible b/c of bias. Who did the report? What does under the influence mean? I'll bet 0.001%-0.79% which is legal in VA is included in that stat. How many of that 14.2% was over the legal limit? My issue is not with the mental ward at all. It's with the visibility that the hospital brings with it. All folks who get routed from Reston will come here to Broadlands, a place they would not even know of before. It's a good chance that will bring increased crime since as stated in a previous post Loudoun does not have the staff to support us.

We have a serious issue here folks that does not pertain to the hospital. Loudoun still thinks of itself as a rural county and it's police force represents that. We still have Sherrifs and Deputies while Fairfax has a larger, more modern force. I think we need to look to Fairfax to see what can be done here.

[Farscape]

Well Said SK8R! I was unable to attend the meeting last night as I had a client meeting. How did it go?

quote:Originally posted by SK8R

I agree with Farscape, another hospital here in Ashburn is just ridiculous. Yeah so we have a grocery store on every corner, along with an assortment of other duplicates in every shopping center. Think about it, it is rather sad and tacky that we have this sort of development going on here.... Who are you that you think you need to have every possible amenity at your fingertips when other parts of Loudoun are struggling. Don't tell me that all of the development is here. That is just not true.
HCA wants to be here because they put their $$ into this place and they want to be here where the big money is. They are not going to back out with out a fight. Meanwhile western and Northern Loudoun have to drive out here or go to Fauquier to get to a hospital.
This seems like duh.. dumb planning. Certainly not thinking of the future, just money and how to get it fast.
Go to the meeting tonight and the folks that are for this hospital in Broadlands are going to be very surprized at the desire and need for medical care out west. We don't need it here in Broadlands, really.
Thugs, criminals and drunks in Ashburn? they are already here.

[trb]

quote:Originally posted by Homer Simpson

For stats to be credible they have to come from a credible source. MADD is not credible b/c of bias. Who did the report? What does under the influence mean? I'll bet 0.001%-0.79% which is legal in VA is included in that stat. How many of that 14.2% was over the legal limit?


Homer - all you had to do is click on the link and all of your questions would have been answered, including definitions, survey methodology, etc.

Just in case, here it is again:

http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/NHSDA/2k2NSDUH/Results/2k2results.htm

The information comes from the Results from the 2002 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: National Findings, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Office of Applied Studies.

I think most would agree that's fairly objective and credible...

[Homer Simpson]

quote:Originally posted by trb

quote:Originally posted by Homer Simpson

For stats to be credible they have to come from a credible source. MADD is not credible b/c of bias. Who did the report? What does under the influence mean? I'll bet 0.001%-0.79% which is legal in VA is included in that stat. How many of that 14.2% was over the legal limit?


Homer - all you had to do is click on the link and all of your questions would have been answered, including definitions, survey methodology, etc.

Just in case, here it is again:

http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/NHSDA/2k2NSDUH/Results/2k2results.htm

The information comes from the Results from the 2002 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: National Findings, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Office of Applied Studies.

I think most would agree that's fairly objective and credible...



If I had the time to back up your statements for you then I would read it but since it is your statement why don't you post the answers?

[GCyr]

Last night's HSA vote results are available at:

http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=7678

The voting results were 6-0 against the HCA proposal and a 3-3 tie on the LHC proposal.

[Farscape]

Thanks GCyr!
quote:Originally posted by GCyr

Last night's HSA vote results are available at:

http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=7678

The voting results were 6-0 against the HCA proposal and a 3-3 tie on the LHC proposal.

[SK8R]

:-)
Happy. Good news for Broadlands.

[SK8R]

Hey! how about an ice rink in that spot? &gt;&gt;&gt;Broadlands Ice Arena&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
Ashburn Ice House is always crowded.
I know people from Hamilton and Waterford that drive all they way out here to go to that rink.
Too many people going there. We really need another ice rink.

[sunnydog]

Well following Farscape's logic you would need to use the ice rink on a weekly basis to justify its development.

[Farscape]

Yeah, with that logic I have, I guess it isn't feasible to have another ice rink nearby. The logic that grocery stores & gas stations are used more than hospitals per person. What was I thinking?

[SK8R]

You know, there are a lot of people that ice skate 3 - 4 times per week. I think that justifies the need.
What's the problem here? It would be great for Broadlands. Drunks don't ice skate. You don't see drugs at a rink.

[Homer Simpson]

quote:Originally posted by sunnydog

Well following Farscape's logic you would need to use the ice rink on a weekly basis to justify its development.



Farscape's logic is correct. It's not logical to have two hospitals within 5 miles of each other. It is your logic that is faulty, however, as your application of Farscape's tautology does not apply to smaller zoning units.

Saying that you can't have two gas stations within five miles is not the same as saying two hospitals and is not a very good comparison. Hospitals are not commerical services or luxury units like gas stations, ice rinks, etc.. You can have many of these in close proximity and not reach over saturation. However two major hospitals will cancel each other out and one will fail since Loudoun cannot handle two at this point in its growth.

Consider this. As it stands now, Fairfax Inova, Reston HCA, and Loudoun are each a fair distance away from each other. There are smaller clinics within 5 five miles but no hospitals. There is sound urban planning behind that.

One note, you should really understand someone's opinion before attempting to ridicule it. It just makes you look foolish.

[jtarnow]

I think that last line is a little uncalled for, don't you? You made your point, Homer, no need to personally cut someone else down.

quote:Originally posted by Homer Simpson
One note, you should really understand someone's opinion before attempting to ridicule it. It just makes you look foolish.

[GCyr]

It would be nice if we kept this topic related to the subject, which is Broadlands Hospital. Start another topic if you want to discuss ice rinks or ABC stores...

[SK8R]

For pity sake, we have talked this hospital issue to death. It is not going to happen so let's move on.
You can continue to waste your breath and HCA can continue to waste their $ fighting this. That's fine with me,
however I am so ready to move on This is a good place to start.

[Homer Simpson]

I do think it was called for, and I was being polite for that matter! What was uncalled for was a continued bashing and belittling of Farscape's opinion.

quote:Originally posted by jtarnow

I think that last line is a little uncalled for, don't you? You made your point, Homer, no need to personally cut someone else down.

quote:Originally posted by Homer Simpson
One note, you should really understand someone's opinion before attempting to ridicule it. It just makes you look foolish.

[SK8R]

What happened at the HSA BOA meeting on September 22nd?? Anyone know? Anyone go to that??

[Stephanie]

Hi,

I did not make it to the meeting, but it was a success. The HCA people had the door closed in their faces. Maybe they will go away now, but why do I think that they are not that smart? Leesburg Today covered the meeting. See the link below:

http://www.leesburg2day.com/current.cfm?catid=28&newsid=7678