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Candidates Debate Last Night -- Opinions?

Discussion in 'Broadlands Community Issues' started by chris, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. chris

    chris New Member

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    One more thing... I find it awfully convenient that you cannot find this quote when in fact you yourself cited the SAME EXACT language in a message posted on 09/08/2003 at 10:12 AM in the "Broadlands Hospital" thread. You found it once. Maybe you can find it again?
     
  2. GCyr

    GCyr New Member

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    If you read my recent messages, I included the date of the EMTALA that I was using and mentioned that it was the FINAL rule, which by definition supercedes the draft or preliminary rule which is where you got your quote from. I think I also mentioned back in August that the EMTALA was in the process of being revised. Well, the final is out.

    As I mentioned last night, this discussion is going nowhere quickly, so address your comments and snide remarks to someone else.


     
  3. chris

    chris New Member

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    The section of EMTALA that you cited months ago and the one I cited recently is not being revised. Just so everyone knows, hospitals need to treat or stabilize EVERY patient who walks in the doors of their ERs. That applies to patients who are as violent as John Allen Mohammed or someone who has been in a car wreck. Do not allow yourselves to be decieved about that!

    However, this conversation is going nowhere. That is because the hospital is not coming to the Broadlands according to the rulings of every relevant state official and court in Virginia!
     
  4. Homer Simpson

    Homer Simpson New Member

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    Check your facts before you post. Anti-hospital folks were censored when someone started disparaging social groups. In fact what was said was much less harsh than calling someone an idiot. You may have meant it in a sarcastic way but that did not come through in print. Use emoticons.
     
  5. Forum Administrator

    Forum Administrator Member Forum Staff

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    Ok everyone, tone it down. There is no need at all for any of this to get personal at all. As an FYI, we will edit any and all personal attacks - it's clear they are not allowed on our community forums. If you have something personal to say to someone, just take it offline.

    Thanks!

    Admin
     
  6. luvmyredslk320

    luvmyredslk320 New Member

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    I don't know why people are still talking about the hospital. It's D-E-A-D! Nobdoy wants it. Even if it were built (keep in mind that it is D-E-A-D!), it will attract the kind of people that you see in Emergency Rooms. That's just a plain and simple fact. I don't know why anyone would try to say otherwise.

    Personally, my house is far enough from the intended site that it would not matter. But I feel bad for those only Broadlands Blvd. who would be directly affected. I'm neither for or against the hospital, but I wish the pro-hospital people would act a little nicer, listen to the concerns of the other side, and acknowledge that hospitals do involve death, dying, mental illness, and lots of other unsavory things just by their very nature.

    I don't think that is going to happen, but is it too much to ask that the pro-hospital people just admit defeat and stop dredging up the past? The hospital issue is D-E-A-D!

    Now, can we all work together on getting a stop light put in at Claiborne and Broadlands???
     
  7. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    greggbroadlands-
    Reston does not have any mental health beds. Loudoun Hospital has 10 or 20, I forget which, at their Cornwall Campus and I believe they requested approval for 10 more. The BRMC would have 40 mental health beds for pediatric and juvenile patients. They eliminated the request for 20 adult mental health beds in their second COPN application.

    Chris-
    When you uses phrases such as "CRIMINALLY INSANE" in capital letters, I read it as to imply that this is a scary risk to the community and should be avoided. Had you provided examples of how criminally insane patients were taken to a hospital and somehow went into the community and caused harm, then your point would have some validity. If that was not your implication, then I'm sorry I misread it.
    I used Reston and Loudoun because they are the nearest hospitals. But, if you prefer, I'll expand the list. Show me a case near Dominion (the psychiatric hospital), Fair Oaks, etc. If you have some examples, it is something I would like to know. My research has shown the opposite.
    I spoke to the Loudoun Sheriff's office to ask if there is increased criminal activity associated with LHC or the psychiatric facilty in Leesburg. The answer was "no". A Broadlands resident is a Fairfax County sheriff who patrolled the district in Falls Church where Dominion hospital is located. He said there was no criminal issues within the community associated with the facility.
    I like to think these are some facts that others can independently corraborate if they choose. I'm sorry if my requesting some facts to support an argument is interpreted by some to be an attack.

    As far as bringing criminal elements into the community, the shopping plaza will generate significantly more crime that a hospital will. I refer to the shootings, strong armed robberies, car break-ins, fights and thefts that already occur in the shopping plazas of Ashburn.

    luvmyredslk-
    I have a feeling it is far from dead. I doubt they would have purchased the property if they believed that was the case. Time will tell......

    Cliff
     
  8. T8erman

    T8erman Well-Known Member

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    luvmyredslk - that is pretty broad statement you make about "nobody" and "the kind of people" an emergency room will attract. Based on the comments just from the people who post in these forumns, there are PLENTY of us who support the hospital. As to who would you see in the emergency room? You would see your neighbors and others like your neighbors from the surrounding communities. Is it us who you are referring to when you say "the kind of people the hospital will attract"? The hospital may not happen, but you are naive to believe that it is a D-E-A-D issue at this time.
     
  9. hberg

    hberg give me some of your tots

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    I honestly dread to think what will go in that spot instead of a hospital. I am not for or against the hospital. I am on the fence, but having said that, my father was one of those mentally ill patients who had to go to Cornwall, he had Alzheimer's and anytime he fell out of bed, or had an injury that produced blood or swelling, his assisted living sent him via ambulance to the ER (this would include Fairfax INOVA - and don't get me started on how lousely of a hospital they are). Because of his mental state, he was put in such a "bed" - category. I am disappointed at how these conversations have turned - sorry but most are from the anti-hospital side. I think it overpowers any arguement you have for your side.

    And actually I am not really on the fence anymore, I do support the hospital - though I am not sure Broadlands is the right place due to the close proximity of Loudoun County Hosp and Reston -- both I have been too and both were much - MUCH better then INOVA!!!!

    I am not sure that having one hospital so close to another one is beneficial. But the county certainly lacks the infrastructure to support it's rapidly growing population to include the need for yet more schools.
     
  10. killer_bee

    killer_bee New Member

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    We have asked the pro-ho$pital folks for the same thing and have gotten nothing. If the HOA/HCA (HCA/HOA - HOA/HCA -- is there a difference?) and VaCliff feel so strongly that the ho$pital will not ever have a single criminally insane, violently delusional, or other similar patient treated at the facility, please put that promise in writing. If you supply that, I'll happily drop this topic. Feel free to post it here, in the next pro-hospital propaganda mailing, or in the next issue of the Broadlands Newsletter.

    killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia
     
  11. chris

    chris New Member

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    KB:

    Sounds reasonable. I'll wager you your choice of Starbucks that you'll be labeled "crazy" yourself for asking them for what they ask from anyone who "sneezes" in a way that they construe to be questioning of the hospital.
     
  12. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    Killer Bee-
    Yes, it is possible that those types of individuals could be treated at this hospital. I agree with you. That being said, what is the liklihood this poses a threat to the community? That is why I have asked those that feel it is a threat to show some examples of where it has occurred.
    If you are truly concerned about criminal threats in the community, better stay away from the Safeway Plaza. There was a shooting last year at the Food Lion plaza. My wife was there another time when a store employee got her head bashed in and robbed. More than one bank and gas station have had armed robberies in Ashburn (First Virgina and Mobil). If you are truly concerned about threats to the community, where is your outrage over a shopping center in Broadlands? Aren't there enough shopping centers in Ashburn without bringing that crime into Broadlands? Or are you just against the hospital no matter what?
    I have shared, on this and other forums, in person, and at meetings, the information I have received, and the sources of the information about various issues regarding the hospital. I would be happy to meet with you, or others, to share this information personally. I have posted the facts about what the law enforcement community has said about crime and hospitals. Is that not enough? Who would you have to hear from that there isn't crime in neighborhoods associated with hospitals before you believe it?
     
  13. killer_bee

    killer_bee New Member

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    This is the type of blanket statement that makes me question the pro-ho$pital side's rhetoric. So, you are now saying that there has NEVER been a crime in ANY neighborhood near a hospital. I find that hard to believe.

    Such mis-information is exactly what makes some of us question this ho$pital.

    killer_bee in broadands, ashburn, virginia
     
  14. GCyr

    GCyr New Member

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    Cliff said to point us to the facts you have concerning crime at or near hospitals. Your response is the type of blanket statement that makes me question the anti-hospital side's rhetoric.


     
  15. chris

    chris New Member

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    Cliff, I've been to Safeway numerous times. I've now been to Starbucks once. I never have felt unsafe at the new shopping plaza. Maybe that is because they don't treat the mentally ill there?

    Also, as companies, Safeway and Starbucks have not had to settle HUGE lawsuits for ripping of their customers, the government, or the taxpayers. Guess what? Your beloved HCA has had to do just that--to tune of about $1 billion dollars. I don't know what scares me more about the proposed hospital--being ripped off by HCA or having mentally ill patients across the street. How can anyone support HCA given these FACTS?

    On a final note, GCyr, I am sorry that you are having difficulty reading the Code of Federal Regulations and the Federal Register, but the EMTALA section you cited HAS NOT CHANGED! EMTALA has always applied the mental healthcare despite your attempts to mis-inform the good people of the Broadlands.
     
  16. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    Chris-
    Have you been to the Food Lion Plaza? That's where there have been shootings, robberies, etc. Have you been to the Superfresh (now Shoppers) plaza? There have been robberies there. Have you been to the new Giant Plaza in Ashburn Farm. Yep, armed robberies there, too. I'll bet you've felt safe in these Plazas and hey! they have violent crime and don't treat the mentally ill there! My wife always felt safe in shopping centers, but since she was present when a person got their head smashed and robbed while she was there, she feels a bit less safe now.
    My point, in case you missed it, is that there is demonstrable crime and the criminal element associated with shopping centers within Ashburn. But not a word of protest about one being built in Broadlands by the folks worried about bringing a criminal element into the community.
    I have asked, and neither you or KillerBee or any of the other anti-hospital folks that use fear of crime as a reason to not support the hospital, have been able to show any instances of crime associated with hospitals around here. And based on my conversations with law enforcement officials in Loudoun and Fairfax counties, there isn't any. Maybe that's why no one can find some examples? Just wondering.
    I agree that HCA has paid fines (it's actually 1.7 billion dollars), and thanks for posting a fact, and if that's your reason for not wanting the hospital, that's fine. I know of others who agree with you. They don't mind a hospital being built there, but just not by HCA for this reason. I have posted why this fact doesn't dissuade me (no violations were in Virginia, have received good service at Reston, better HCA pay the fines than the taxpayers and investors).

    Regarding the mentally ill, have you been to Dominion Hospital and observed the types of treatments and programs there for children? I have, and I have no concerns over these types of services being offered here. If you haven't been there, I'd be happy to set up a visit for you.

    KillerBee- wow, if that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black!
    You like to make broad based statements, do not supply any information whatsoever to support those statements, and then get indignant at me when I make a statement and support it with facts.
    So, I'll ask you....Do you think the FACTS that I have supplied about criminal activity are incorrect? Can you supply any facts that show I am incorrect? Are you willing to spend any time or effort to research your statements? Would you like to contact the same sources I did and hear it for yourself?
    That's why I asked you the question, and I'll ask it again...what will you have to hear, and who would you have to hear it from, for you to realize there isn't crime problems in neighborhoods associated with hospitals?
     
  17. T8erman

    T8erman Well-Known Member

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    Based on some of the posts, I believe I may already live across the street from some mental patients! :)
     
  18. chris

    chris New Member

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    Cliff, we obviously disagree. So, nothing I can say will change your mind. Equally, nothing you have said so far changes mine.

    Still there is one that I do want to say, and it is heartfelt: I am sorry to hear to hear about your wife and her experiences at Food Lion and Shoppers Food Warehouse. Violence in any form (ranging from a personal attack to war) is loathsome and has no place in a civilized nation. We should all try to raise the next generation to respect all life, all cultures, and all peoples.
     
  19. Homer Simpson

    Homer Simpson New Member

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    Cliff, You made my point on why we need a police station here in Ashburn, Thanks!
     
  20. GCyr

    GCyr New Member

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    Chris,

    Yes, I did find that the original section you quoted remained in the revised EMTALA, but it certainly doesn't say anything about "criminally insane." You have chosen to use that term to describe people with mental healthcare problems, but I don't agree with it. (If I were snippy, I might suggest that you get an appointment with your doctor to check into your mental health. Since I am polite, I would not suggest that, though.)


     

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