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Greedway tolls raised again?

Discussion in 'General Chat Forum' started by jdhauer, Jul 20, 2006.

Page 6 of 6
  1. qzpmal

    qzpmal New Member

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    This is the response from the Dulles Greenway office with regards to "distance based" tolls.
     
    qzpmal, Nov 11, 2006
    #101
  2. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    That assumes tolls would DECREASE after a distance based system. No way. They'll raise the full distance toll to offset the lost income and justify it with 'to cover the cost of implementation'.

    They wouldn't implement distance based and LOSE money by doing so. They'd raise tolls to offset the lower income from this area.

    Maybe our tolls would go down slightly, but to think they would drop significantly is a pipe dream IMO
     
    flynnibus, Nov 11, 2006
    #102
  3. dcdavis

    dcdavis Ooops!!

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    Cliff-

    The problem is that we don't know if the state could/would take over the Greenway if it were in default. Even eminent domain requires just compensation to the property owner. You think the state has hundreds of millions of dollars laying around?

    Call me crazy, but I'd hate to see the Greenway go in default, they put up barricades at every entry point, and no one can find the funds to buy/operate it.
     
    dcdavis, Nov 11, 2006
    #103
  4. Mr. Linux

    Mr. Linux Senior Member & Moderator Forum Staff

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    Untrue!!!

    The original design of the Dulles Toll Road DID have a rudimentary 'partial utilization discount'. I clearly remember back a few years ago that once you went through the main toll plaza heading west, the cost to 'exit' from the road increased the furthur you went west. Only recently have they decided to make all exits 50 cents, presumably because the blanket higher rate increased revenues, but also made it easier to provide change, etc. So it wasn't the original design for that road; the current setup is there out of 'convinience'.

    The Greedway owners could EASILY implement a discount for partial utilization for all their Smart-Tag customers. All that would be needed would be some sort of 'Smart-Tag' reader at all on-ramps. Not even a full tollbooth, just an overhead sensor like they have at the toll plaza. Then, they would know where we got on and where we got off and could determine the cost. Don't have Smart-Tag? Easy, no discount for you. Another incentive to get the faster toll payment method. Finally, such a system could provide the folks who run the road almost immediate feedback as to how traffic is flowing, etc. They would know when cars get on and off and as such, their average speed.

    Of course, it's obvious why the Greedway owners are against such a system. First, they would have to spend money for the sensors. Secondly, they stand to lose a lot of money by not being able to rip-off Ashburn residents using their road. Thirdly, the State would have concrete statistics proving that the time-savings advertised by the owners are incorrect when you take into effect the daily backups on this road.

    All in all, my personal opinion is that we're 'screwed' for a long, long, long time. Even at current rates, the Greedway owners are raking in tons of money; why would they pull out from such a huge cash cow? Capitalism at its best, and we're at the mercy of it...
     
    Mr. Linux, Nov 11, 2006
    #104
  5. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    First of all, I'd call the Greenway's bluff. They will continue to rake in handsome profits with their current price structure. If they go into default, the state takes over the road, and could keep the tolls at a reasonable rate because the state would not need a PROFIT from the road.
     
    vacliff, Nov 11, 2006
    #105
  6. lilpea

    lilpea Member

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    When the Greedway folks sent me a response to the general question...My Smart-tag works in, MD, DE and NJ. I am originally from NJ and visit once a month. The Tolls are distance based in DE & NJ and what do you know my Smart-Tag works. I zipped in and out of the toll booths via the E-Z tag express lanes. So the marketing spin I posted on this thread from the Dulles Greedway, was just plain silly. The PR rep did not have an explaination as to why my Smart-Tag works on a distance base toll road outside of VA....could it be, the other roads I travel are not privately owned?
     
    lilpea, Nov 11, 2006
    #106
  7. neilz

    neilz New Member

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    FWIW ... the Smart Tag works on the PA Turnpike, as a distance based toll.
     
    neilz, Nov 11, 2006
    #107
  8. WesGurney

    WesGurney New Member

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    Slightly off topic but I traveled from Reston to Broadlands yesterday using the toll road and they finished the paving project get rid of the 3-lane to 2-lane merge at the bridge to the Greenway just past the exit for Rt. 28 - its now 3 lanes over the bridge!

    This should help a lot with the traffic during the rush hour home.
     
    WesGurney, Nov 12, 2006
    #108
  9. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    Their arguements are simply they don't have the infrastructure for it.. which is true. They don't have toll collection at all the ramps. Their software may also be behind.. but its not impossible. But it is also NOT possible given what they have today.
     
    flynnibus, Nov 12, 2006
    #109
  10. beahmer

    beahmer Member

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    Yeah I'd say that those roads are all STATE owned - by states that figured out how to build roads and charge people with tolls versus creating a public/private partnership as the idiots here in VA did and will do again I'm sure.

    My real beef these days is why WE here in Loudoun and beyond are required to pay tolls for this road and for Metro when the state is working on I66,
    I395/95/495, Wodrow Wilson bridge, etc... but I dont see any tolls on these roads.At least a 25 mile drive on 66 is "free" on the DTR/Greenway it costs $3.95. It used to be I would have said the extra cost was worth it, but not now. Traffic is basically the same on all these roads.
     
    beahmer, Nov 12, 2006
    #110
  11. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    Wow really? I was caught in traffic where that construction started on Friday and couldn't believe they were doing lane closures at 6pm on a weekday. Suprised!
     
    flynnibus, Nov 12, 2006
    #111
  12. dcdavis

    dcdavis Ooops!!

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    I'm not sure if it really will help traffic, as it simply moves the choke point up only about 1500 feet. Unless they end up paving the third lane all the way to the toll booth (which should be the plan, as it couldn't be that difficult or expensive), it doesn't solve anything.

    And, it's actually confusing, b/c the rightmost lane is now an "Exit Only" to Route 28 South, although there is no indication of that. The far left lane, which used to end and merge to the right, now stays, if I remember correctly (I was in the right lane and caught off guard).

    I didn't notice any "Change in Traffic Pattern" signage...
     
    dcdavis, Nov 12, 2006
    #112
  13. T8erman

    T8erman Well-Known Member

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    After commuters get use to the new pattern it should quite a bit as the far right lane will be for Rt 28 traffic.
    The 2 dedicated lanes for straight thru should also stop the people who would dive into the far right lane to avoid the backup at the merge. Sure, there will always be those that will try to merge at the last possible second to get that 2-3 car advantage.
    The issue may be that more cars will now get to the toll booths quicker causing a back there.
     
    T8erman, Nov 12, 2006
    #113
  14. Mr. Linux

    Mr. Linux Senior Member & Moderator Forum Staff

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the Greedway money goes towards Metro, etc. Since it's privately owned, it goes straight to the Greedway owners and not the State. As far as I know, none of the Greedway tolls contain a 'State Tax' percentage...

    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here...
     
    Mr. Linux, Nov 12, 2006
    #114
  15. Mr. Linux

    Mr. Linux Senior Member & Moderator Forum Staff

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    That's a good start, but what really needs to be done is something about the 2 lanes heading from the Greedway to the Tollroad. Since it's an overpass, I don't think we'll see this happen anytime soon. In a couple spots, I don't even think there's any room to expand... Great planning for the future there...
     
    Mr. Linux, Nov 12, 2006
    #115
  16. lilpea

    lilpea Member

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    lilpea, Nov 12, 2006
    #116
  17. beahmer

    beahmer Member

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    My comment was in larger part why do we have to pay for roads and or Metro and the rest of the region doesnt? I agree the Greenway simply collects and profits (quite well apparently) on our backs (see the article in the link above) but if the state had their act together they could have built the road and not be looking for such a huge return.

    Only the increases on the DTR were put in place to pay for Metro. Another interesting item since in reality the DTR should have been paid off and tolls eliminated. And now the state has given control of the DTR to the airport who will build Metro one way or another even if it means $10 tolls to get it done. At least Waxpool/28 is an alternative to the Greenway - personally I dont see a way around the DTR - I couldnt imagine sitting on Rt7 to Tysons or on Rt28 all the way to I66.
     
    beahmer, Nov 12, 2006
    #117
  18. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    The argument is the private road was put in where the state wouldn't... ok.. so the private went beyond what the state would do.. fine. But SINCE then, what has the state done for this region for e/w traffic? Nothing.. why? Because they know the Greedway is burdening the load. If the state were to treat the greedway as an 'optional' route.. fine, but where is the transportation to meet the people who option NOT to take the greedway?

    I'm starting to go through Herndon more and more to get to Reston.. bypassing both the greedway and DTR (aka.. soon to be Greedway II)
     
    flynnibus, Nov 12, 2006
    #118
  19. lilpea

    lilpea Member

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    Public vs Private...who actually holds the money bag? Regardless, Loudoun drivers are taking on the Lion's share of the cost and I doubt VDOT, VA Assembly and/or Loudoun County ever thought the Greenway tolls would spin out of control.

    Below is an explaination and it seems that the VA SCC approved an other 20 yr extension for TRIP II extended the period to 2056..."Still facing financial challenges, TRIP II restructured its debt in 1999 and agreed to an extension of the project. In 2001 the Virginia State Corporation Commission extended TRIP II’s concession period for an additional 20 years to 2056." Web-link to Federal FHA is http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/PPP/dulles.htm

    In Aug of '05 ownership changed to the following company: Macquarie Infrastructure Group. In YTD '06, MIG shows hefty profit margins of: (I am not a number cruncher, but the following #'s jumped off the page, at least to my untrained eye)
    Net Margin 44.49% Operating Margin 31.11% EBITD Margin 45.82%

    This is the link to support my prior statement.

    http://finance.google.com/finance?q=ASX:MIG
     
    lilpea, Nov 12, 2006
    #119
  20. beahmer

    beahmer Member

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    Re: Greedway tolls raised again? - Hearing Scheduled in Loudoun

    All,
    Looks like of the 343 comments recorded with the SCC, the majority were against (shock!) the increase and had a common theme - have a hearing in Loudoun County

    Below is the publice notice::

    NOTICE TO THE PUBLIC OF AN APPLICATION
    BY TOLL ROAD INVESTORS PARTNERSHIP 11, L.P.,
    TO REVISE TOLLS FOR THE DULLES GREENWAY
    STATE CORPORATION COMMISSION
    CASE NO. PUE-2006-00081
    By order of the State Corporation Commission dated
    November 2,2006, a public hearing will be held on January 30,
    2007, beginning at 2:OO p.m. and reconvening at 6:30 p.m., in the
    Board of Supervisors Meeting Room, Loudoun County
    Government Center, 1 Harrison Street, S.E., Leesburg, Virginia
    20177, to receive comments from public witnesses on the
    Application filed by Toll Road Investors Partnership 11, L.P. ("Toll
    Road Investors" or "Partnership") for an increase in the maximum
    authorized level of tolls for the Dulles Greenway. The public
    hearing shall resume at 1O:OO a.m. on March 13,2007, in the
    Commission's Courtroom, Second Floor, Tyler Building,
    1300 East Main Street, Richmond, Virginia to receive evidence on
    the Application from the Toll Road Investors, any respondents, and
    the Commission Staff.

    Here is the official link if you want to read the whole thing:
    http://www.scc.virginia.gov/caseinfo/e-notice/ne060081a.pdf
     
    beahmer, Dec 7, 2006
    #120
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