i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. your stance is that if a place will allow children then you will take them there whether or not it's an atmosphere that suits them. it's your right- you aren't breaking any rules. my stance is that i use my best judgement to decide whether or not my kid belongs someplace and don't need a rule to make that decision for me. if a place has an adult vibe, a menu of upscale cuisine with no kids menu, and is the kind of place that I know my neighbors go to to have kid-free outing- AND- it's not the type of place HE could even ENJOY- then i wouldn't wreck that just because there's no rule telling me NOT to. i love to disagree with you t8- you are fun to argue with!