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HOA Question Questionable billing practices at First Service Residential/Armstrong.

Discussion in 'Broadlands Community Issues' started by boomertsfx, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    Exactly as I thought - all that does is establish the 10 days as the grace length, and does nothing to define what 'paid' means or paid vs received. The rest of your claims about what it means for FSR to receive vs process are your own interpretations - not what is defined in the bylaws. Your claims about the bylaws overstate what is actually defined.
     
  2. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    When the definition of a word is not defined, we have to use conman meaning of that word. That simple.

    Steve's employer mailed his pay check on January 3rd, 2014, but Steve was on vacationing in Europe from January 1st to February 10th 1014. The Post Office stopped delivering the mail at his request. Since it was a local mail, the pay check would have been delivered to him on January 4th, 2014. He got the the check on February 10th when he picked up the mail from Post Office, and deposited it in the bank on February 11th.

    Post Office takes 1 day to deliver local mail. Steve's employer is local.

    Guess which is the "paid" date in the above example?

    Paid date is January 3rd and the received date is January 4th. Dates when the mail was opened or when the check was deposited are immaterial.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  3. kevinq

    kevinq Member

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    Why would Steve's employer mail the check on January 3, when they had a grace period until February 7 to get Steve his check when he returned from vacation (Feb 8 - 9 is a weekend)?
     
  4. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    Because, employers run the payroll for ALL employees at the same time.
    And employers are obligated to pay the employee for the work done whether the employee is on vacation or not.
    If the employee has enrolled in direct-deposit, that money would have been deposited in his back account on January 3rd.
    In this example, Steve did not opt for direct-deposit.
     
  5. kevinq

    kevinq Member

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    cogs - "As you said previously, you are missing the point. Irrespective of when the" payroll was run, did the employer have to mail the check before February 7 since the check got to Steve when he arrived home? The employer would have paid their obligation and Steve would have received his paycheck before he noticed it was late. No harm - no late fees.

    As my previous posts state, I am on the side of paying my bills prior to the due date because of the obligation that I have to pay for services that I used. Therefore, I am on the side of the employer mailing the check on January 3 to meet Steve's expected pay (due) date. Nonetheless, I took the counter argument to your payroll example to show that there is room to argue technicalities in most scenarios. Steve would expect that his paycheck is sitting in his mailbox (of the Post Office since he stopped mail delivery) because of the due date for the payroll period. With the same reasoning, why shouldn't our HOA payments be expected to be in First Service's mailbox (or account) by the due date?
     
  6. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    Kevin,

    What if Steve asked his brother to check his mail and deposit the paycheck. How would the employer know that? Can the employer assume that Steve does not need the paycheck until he returns from the vacation?

    The purpose of the rules is to remove ambiguities and assumptions. In our case, the rule say, payments are due by 1st of the month. No arguments there. If that is the only rule, on the 2nd of the month, then any assessment not paid could be delinquent, late fees levied and subjected to collection activities. In this scenario, it is up to the management agent to determine when this process starts.

    So, we have a few more rules like, a payment has to be at least 30 days late before the collection activities starts and payments have to be at least 10 days late before the late fees are levied.

    My point is, in this case, the management agent is probably determining which payments are late by using the payment processing date as the payment date. This is a problem because they are taking very long time to process the payments.
     
  7. msflynn

    msflynn New Member

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    Cogs you are spinning a loosing argument here:
    The board has changed this wording (it is not a bi-law) when I was on the board. Having a payment due on the 1st means it needs to be mailed/ sent/ whatever prior to the 1st so it arrives no later then the 1st of the moth. Since many community members around here have set pay dates of the 1st and 15th of the month) we (the HOA board) changed the wording to allow payments to be mailed through and including the 1st and still be properly credited to the account. Members sending a check after the 1st are late any way you want to look at it!
    Staci
     
  8. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    No - you've added your own rules that the text does not convey. It's that simple.
     
    PDILLM likes this.
  9. sowalker

    sowalker New Member

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    Hopefully after cogs wins a seat on the swhoa he will be writing a lot of policy and new bylaws to help clear all this up!
     
  10. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%. What makes you think otherwise?

    Even though such payments are late, as long as those payments are received by the management agent by the 10th of the month, are not delinquent and late fees cannot be applied.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  11. Capricorn1964

    Capricorn1964 Active Member

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    You actually THINK he will be writing alot of policies and new bylaws? Didn't it occur to you that there are other people on the board that can vote to deny the proposed changes that he could submit! He would have to garnish more than half of the votes necessary to pass it. There are too many on the board that will vote against him. Getting on the board isnt guaranteed to get things to go his way..... Sure, he could theoretically get on the board but he may not be able to get anything changed either with policies/by-laws/lawsuits. Just my .02 here.
     
  12. flynnibus

    flynnibus Well-Known Member Forum Staff

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    You have a knack for writing opinion as if it were fact
     
    PDILLM and sowalker like this.
  13. sowalker

    sowalker New Member

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    All of that is true, but don't you think his ability to sway opinion would change most of the board members view? He seems to believe the board is run by one person now anyway, so they can be led. If nothing else we could get him to post his own minutes on the forum.
     
  14. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    I'm a bit black and white on this issue.
    Payment is DUE the first of the month in order to not be late. Payment should be sent in order to be received NO LATER than the first of the month.
    For those that admittedly send in their payments late, but think they won't hit the penalty date...too bad.
    If you mailed your payment so as not to be LATE, paying the late fee penalty will never be an issue.
    If your biweekly payroll is 15th and 1st, then schedule your HOA payment after the deposit on the 15th. I don't think the 1-3% interest on $73 dollars you will lose for 10 days is going to cause you to default on your mortgage.
     
    sowalker likes this.
  15. Mimi

    Mimi New Member

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    We have always scheduled our payment for the 1st of each month.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  16. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    Actually, my reading of the provision seems to be accurate.

    BHOA's Policy Resolutions 2011-01, Section II (a) have the following provision:
    This provision puts to rest the Paid vs Received debate.

    My only beef is, FSR seems to be taking taking too long to process the payments and as a result charging late fees on payments received by the 10th of month. I consider that unfair to the members.
     
  17. Mr. Linux

    Mr. Linux Senior Member & Moderator Forum Staff

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    I would have to disagree with you. The Due Date is the 1st of the month. If you would prefer that the BHOA remove the 'grace period' of 10 days and stand firm with the 1st of the month due date, then by all means, make that statement, show up to a meeting, and make that formal request to the BHOA. This could all be solved by the BHOA saying "The due date is the 1st of the month. If we get your payment on the 2nd, you will have a late charge applied. No grace period." - is that what you really want?

    The BHOA (as well as many other entities that receive payments, such as a credit card company, contractor, etc) all have grace periods to avoid situations where unforeseen circumstances cause delays. It's up to the person paying the bills to decide if they want to respect that grace period, or abuse it. It sounds that you prefer to abuse the benefit of the grace period, so that is your prerogative. Regardless of what you might believe, in a court, you would have a very difficult time convincing a judge that payments received and processed AFTER the due date aren't 'late'. If you believe strongly in your statement, you can send in your HOA payments after the due date and as close as possible to the end of the grace period date (the 10th), get charged late fees, refuse to pay them and get taken to court and plead your case. Otherwise, it's just you making a statement of what you believe is reality, as opposed to what has been going on for almost 2 decades here in Broadlands. Feel free to begin paying your other bills after their due date as well and see how accurate your understanding of their grace period policies are.
     
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  18. T8erman

    T8erman Well-Known Member

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    Not following too closely but is FSR is going by the "PROCESS" date or the "RECEIVED" date to determine lateness?
     
  19. vacliff

    vacliff "You shouldn't say that."

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    Actually, in Section 1. of the document Cogs, quotes it states:
    upload_2014-1-7_16-39-37.png


    I think THIS puts to bed what the due date is.
     
  20. cogs

    cogs Well-Known Member

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    There was NEVER any dispute about the due date. We all agree its the 1st of the month. The question we are debating is how FSR treating the payments.

    Wish someone can answer the T8erman's question above.
     

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