1. Yes, it's a whole new look! Have questions or need help? Please post your question in the New Forum Questions thread Click the X to the right to dismiss this notice
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Seeing tons of unread posts after the upgrade? See this thread for help. Click the X to the right to dismiss this notice
    Dismiss Notice

So we can't call them CHRISTMAS trees anymore?

Discussion in 'General Chat Forum' started by sharse, Nov 13, 2007.

  1. bgirl

    bgirl New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hmmm... I sincerely apologize to anybody who feels I've defamed or belittled them in this discussion. That was NEVER my intention. But I still don't see how celebrating the "festival of Christ" can be anything other than pseudo if you don't believe in Christ, who you're supposedly celebrating.

    But please, let's not quibble over the "non-essentials".
     
  2. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    Erm. So your breaking heart is for non-Christians who "celebrate" Christmas?

    'K then, I can get that.
     
  3. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think this is an example of what bothers people (at least they reversed the situation and did the right thing). With all due respect, if a Christmas tree offends you or is "insensitive", then you are just too plain sensitive and insecure! Same goes with a Menorah--I like seeing Jewish people celebrate their traditions and faith.

    SPRINGFIELD – Missouri State University administrators decided Thursday morning to put a Christmas tree back in the lobby of Strong Hall, along with other religious holiday symbols. A department head removed the 20-foot tree on Monday after a faculty member who is Jewish complained that it was insensitive to other religions.

    After learning about the complaint and the removal of the tree, administrators scheduled a meeting for Friday afternoon to discuss appropriate holiday decorations at the school. That meeting is now canceled.

    “We decided this is the right thing to do, and I am glad there was widespread agreement about it,” President Mike. Nietzel said in a news release. “Missouri State is an institution at which many different religions are represented, and we try to be sensitive to the many views people hold.

    “After having had a chance to air this out a bit more and consider the various perspectives of our campus community, I am happy that the Christmas tree will be back up along with the many others that were already on campus.”

    The tree was back up by 11 a.m. and university employees were decorating it. Courts have ruled Christmas trees are secular symbols if they do not bear religious decorations. The department head who put the tree up said she didn't use any religious symbols on it.
     
  4. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    ... and I like seeing institutions of higher learning recognize that there are other religions in the world aside from Christianity.

    I think a lot of people are, unfortunately, going to misinterpret that faculty member's thoughts and/or feelings, and no doubt the MSM is going to do a good job making sure it gets misinterpreted. Most everyone is going to think what you did -- that the Christmas Tree is what offended the faculty member. Maybe I give more credit to people than most do, but I respectfully agree with him. I am certain the Tree is not what he found offensive, nor the holiday or religion it represents, but by the sentiment the University expresses by the obvious lack of symbols for any other religious holiday.
    And while I agree with the court that a Christmas tree may not itself be a religious symbol, come on... it's a symbol of a religious holiday, regardless of the past of its symbology, it is what it is now. They dropped the ball on that one. It's ethnocentric (or something-centric, anyway) for any institution to honor only one holiday when a significant number of its students, employees, customers, whatever, may come from other traditions.
    In the case of MO State, I like the final solution -- which should have been the first solution, rather than removing the tree. I've seen this done in public and private schools, and even at religiously-affiliated private universities, without anyone needing to be offended first. It's not "Politically Correct." It's good multicultural thinking.

    There's nothing wrong with individuals or families putting up menorahs and candles and trees in their own homes (something I also enjoy seeing), and nothing about any of these symbols offends me. I would not expect a Church to display a Menorah, unless they want to (my old church in New Jersey does, for example). I wouldn't expect a synagogue to display a Christmas tree. But when a highly-visible, public or even private entity forgets to honor other religious celebrations, and honors only Christmas, that does rub me the wrong way.

    After all, Hannukah almost always comes before Christmas. This year it starts on December 4th at sundown. And yet, since two weeks before Christmas, what have I seen and heard? Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. It's no wonder members of other religions start to feel a little irked this time of year. I do my best to let it go, though. Others, like the guy at MO State, speak up.

    Hey, maybe Missouri State actually put up one of Lowe's "Family Trees". ;) Then it shouldn't have been offensive to anyone!

    Side Note:
    Religious Insensitivity 101: Remember the animated movie "An American Tail", about a family of Jewish mice (the main character was Feivel) who escape Nazi Germany and come to America to forge a new life? Remember when McDonalds plastered little Feivel's image all over Christmas decorations? I remember when people thought Jews were being too sensitive about that too....
     
  5. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    I largely agree with you, Tech. But the article reported that the faculty member found the Christmas tree offensive to other religions...which it isn't. But I do think it appropriate--if you are going to put the Christmas tree up--to also honor/acknowledge other religious symbols.

    With regard to everything being Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, that's simply because the overwhelming majority of our country, from its founding, identifies with Christmas/Christianity. I think it's normal for Americans to have this focus since roughly 75% identify themselves as "Christian" (down from 85% ten years ago) and we've had at least a century of tradition related to Christmas deeply ingrained in our culture.

    It is so pervasive--and this is probably not a great thing--that I know several Jewish families who do celebrate the traditions of Christmas (tree, gifts Christmas morning) as well as Hannukah.

    If I went to Israel, I would expect that Hannukah would be mentioned and celebrated in the same way as Christmas is here. I don't think I would be irked or offended by that--I'd expect that. And I wouldn't think Jewish people in Israel were slighting me--it's just the tradition they've had since the country was founded (and obviously thousands of years beforehand).

    And if I went to Arabic/Muslim countries, I sure as heck wouldn't expect to see any Christmas stuff around (I assume you may get in trouble for even mentioning Jewish or Christian traditions there).
     
  6. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'll post this thought because it's intriguing to me and I figure it will get a response. And I'm going to pick on both sides here so stick with me.

    First, I think it is silly to deny the fact that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and values. No, this doesn't mean all the Founders were Christians who wanted to create a Christian nation. But I defy anyone to search through the writings of the early founders of the country--from those who started Harvard and higher education to foundational documents from the Mayflower Compact through the Declaration of Independence to rulings from the Supreme Court--and not clearly see that Judeo-Christian principles are infused throughout our institutions and culture. So for those who bemoan the fact that Christian stuff is such an important part of our culture and traditions, get some perspective.

    At the same time--and this is where I draw the ire of Christians--I think it's equally silly to deny that our nation has changed dramatically, that we are now very much a multi-cultural nation, that Christian mores and views are not the accepted standard as they once were. So for those who bemoan the fact that we've lost our way and kicked God out of our culture--and that we need government to get involved--I say the same thing: get some perspective.

    More Christian ire. I think it is hypocritical for those who claim to be conservative Christians to want the government to validate our beliefs. Conservatives want government out of individual lives...so why is it that we then want government at all levels to validate and make "Christian" laws? This doesn't mean faith doesn't have a part to play in public life, but I think it's misguided to still act as if this is a Christian nation.

    it didn't work out so well when Constantine established a Christian empire, did it?! It may serve as a wake-up call to us that if we want to change society, we should stop making government our god, stop whining that others aren't validating our beliefs, and instead try something novel: live out our faith in neighborhoods and communities by serving the less fortunate. Change hearts instead of laws.
     
  7. KTdid

    KTdid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,430
    Likes Received:
    148
  8. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    I see that line in the article posted, but I just think it's not clearly worded. I stand by my assertion that the faculty member did not call the tree itself offensive, but that putting up just the tree was insensitive -- he as much as said so to the Kansas City Star.
    "The tree had been removed from Strong Hall on the university’s campus on Monday, after a Jewish faculty member complained that it showed a 'lack of sensitivity' to other religions."
    http://www.kansascity.com/116/story/381854.html

    I have to admit I did, but that's because my pop's parents were Christian. Best of both worlds, I suppose? The amusing thing to me is that all the good Jewish entertainers are singing the good versions of all the traditional Christmas songs. (Or have written some of them!) ;)
     
  9. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    Weren't a good chunk of the writers and thinkers that comprised the founding fathers deists? Not that I knew any of them personally but I Seem to recall recently reading about this.

    Well I don't bemoan it. Whu'ever, really, if it makes people happy to believe that, then that's fine with me.
    But I believe that judeo-christian values are re-labelled, re-packaged common-sense, general human values. I mean, they earn the label because someone at some time was bright enough to add these values and morals and principles to the Bible. That doesn't make them inherently judeo-christian.... I think they're the same general values that have existed since before judeo-christianity. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't cheat. Honor your parents. Honor your God (or gods, for pantheon religions). Weren't concepts like this found on stone and clay tablets dated all throughout ancient history? And haven't cultures that had little or no major judeo-christian influences thrived under similar systems of beliefs and morals?
     
  10. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    Um, in a word, no. This is a common and overly simplistic notion. I don't have time now, but if anyone is actually interested, I can list at least 5 ways that the Judeo-Christian worldview has uniquely impacted not only America, but the world. It's actually fascinating from a philosophical point of view.

    Start with the idea of individual liberty, which is very unique...as opposed to the European belief in equality, the Muslim belief in theocracy and the Eastern belief in social conformity. Anyway, lots of interesting stuff, but only if you are a philosophy geek!
     
  11. foodie

    foodie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,480
    Likes Received:
    3
    Silence and others--

    Well said in your posting of Christian mores and norms. Coming from a Mennonite perspective and background, historically, our faith and religion has not wanted the "Government" to dictate to us what we believe or how to believe. As many of you (be it religious or not) citizens agree, this is a Free country. To worship or not to worship, to believe or not, and the freedom to choose to live our lives as we deem necessary is what is great about this country.:happygrin:

    Furthermore, like our forefathers in the Conservative Mennonite faith and traditions, we do not believe in "taking Government's monies, etc." to support our communities and families. Self-sufficiency is what we learned from our early Christian Amish cousins. Of course, traditions and times do change and some of Mennonite brethren have changed also with the ever-changing economy. Rural farms are few and far between in some areas. For our family here in Loudoun County, we chose to farm and enjoy our lives as both of us grew up on farms. Of course, my husband commutes to Chantilly daily for his professional job as you do.

    To get to my point, I think honoring Christmas in its "rightful traditions" instead of "Christmas Commercials" is what is needed in today's self-indulgent and self-occupied world. No, I am not saying that non-Christians should not have their own customs, etc., just that people spend time with families, friends, and others who may not have close friends or family members around the holidays. Whether you are religious or not, "Tis better to give that receive" is an age-old adage that seems quite fitting today. We, as a family, welcome Jewish, Catholic, and others yearly to our farm for a holiday meal as friends/guests to celebrate the "true meaning of Christmas by giving of ourselves and our bounty".

    Thanks for your comments--they are interesting and thought provoking.

    Have a happy and blessed holiday season!

    Foodie and Family
     
  12. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well, that's pretty dismissive. "In a word, no."

    OK, I'm done talking about it.

    Thanks for the discussion this far, though. :)

    Edit: Bah, no need for me to be jerky. I just don't want to argue about Judeo-christian values and the founding of the USA and whatnot. It's not in the spirit of the season, eh? Let's just all have happy holidays.
     
  13. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    Kind of dismissive, no?! Anyway, no need to quibble. Have enjoyed the conversation. Hope you and your family enjoy a very meaningful Hannukah together. Shalom.
     
  14. technosapien

    technosapien New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    1
    No! :happygrin::happygrin:

    Have enjoyed it too. And Merry Winterseasonsgreetingsholidaytidings to everyone.
     
  15. Baywatch68

    Baywatch68 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,264
    Likes Received:
    2
    Looks like this is a battle in Wisconsin
     
  16. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    This is just plain silly and crosses the bounds of rational thought:

    "Annie Laurie Gaylor, a spokesperson for the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a separation of church and state watchdog group, said she considers the proposed name change offensive. Officially calling the tree a Christmas tree, she said, would amount to a state endorsement of Christianity."

    That said, I also find excessive use of taxpayer time and money by legislators passing bills to acknowledge Christmas to be irrational.
     
  17. Brassy

    Brassy Hiyah

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,524
    Likes Received:
    0
    yep, I remember when our choir concerts were called Holiday or Christmas concerts, and then all of a sudden it became Winter Concert.

    So I guess the best thing to do is just call it what your used to and be done with it.
     

Share This Page