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This Generation of Teens

Discussion in 'General Chat Forum' started by Carol Al-Ajroush, Apr 9, 2005.

  1. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    I don't belive that's true.

    A person who resorts to profanity a lot does so because they are accustomed to it--not that they go out of their way to do it. It's easy to fall back on some, well, "multi-purpose" words. The same goes for someone who uses "uh" or "um" a lot in speech. It's easy to use them as fillers. In both cases, they are not effectively communicating but they aren't necessarily doing it intentionally.

    But if you take away the fact that they are considered profane, what do you really have left?

    I understand that the f-word (in most of its meanings) connotes an inapropriate subject for most/many. But let's look at the word [shizznit]. It means poo. Poo isn't always a "naughty" subject. Yet the word shizznit in itself is a naughty word. It really shouldn't be that way but we've been trained to avoid certain words for no reason.

    And if we de-profaned the f-word it doesn't mean that the topic of sex is going to be considered more appropriate. The word has already been there, the topic has already been there, and it's already being used.

    Just because Merriam-Webster added "wedgie" to the dictionary last month doesn't mean everyone's gonna give each other wedgies.

    ...and I'm realistic to know that the "legalize bad words" proposal won't work either. I still think it's the right thing to do (get rid of the whole notion of bad words), but there's no way that society as a whole would accept it. We still can't do anything without worrying about what someone else might think.
     
  2. brim

    brim Member

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    The 'f-word' (just typing that makes one feel like a baby or a 1950's school marm) doesn't only have sexual connotations...see my other post with all the parts of speech and ways you can drop the f-bomb. Plus, it's all context. Words without context have no meaning, which is why I didn't see any complaints for the stream of obscenity I used in that other post (I think).

    Like, just the word sh-t can't possibly offend anyone on it's own...but if you put some context with it like 'Eat sh-t and die' then it becomes an emotional thing. The words themselves aren't bad...quit living in the 50's.
     
  3. southernwalkres

    southernwalkres New Member

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    "A person who resorts to profanity a lot does so because they are accustomed to it--not that they go out of their way to do it."

    Poultry, I remember as a teen going out of my way to use profanity. Whether it was to 'fit in' with my older siblings, or as a means to 'be cool' with my friends at that time (how silly of me), those were the words I chose to use. I probably didn't even understand what most of the words meant.

    I don't think it's much different now than it was, though.
     
  4. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

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    Agree, words inherently are not "bad" or evil...but they are always used in some kind of context.

    I also do not think kids' use of profanity is worse than during the past. Every generation has its own form of rebellion (drugs, tattoos, earrings, long hair, shaved head, whatever).

    The reason I teach my son (trying by example, but tough when the hammer misses the nail and hits my finger!) not to use cuss words is simple: controlling your mouth is one of the most difficult behaviors to master.

    There is a measure of confidence and virtue that comes from being able to control your tongue--whether it is choosing not to curse, gossip, lie or only talk about negative things.

    It is easy and lazy to spout off curse words...just as it is easy and lazy to talk about other people negatively, or yourself too positively!

    Controlling your tongue--whether in public or private--is simply a good virtue.
     
  5. Carol Al-Ajroush

    Carol Al-Ajroush New Member

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    well said...bravo! :)


     
  6. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    That's one of the most insightful posts I've read.

    But I still don't see why one word is banned while another word with the same meaning is not. I understand what you mean about teaching your kids to not go nuts with profanity and lose control. But what's really the difference between someone hitting their thumb with a hammer and yelling, "sh-t!" versus someone yelling, "darn!"?

    When you distill a cuss word, you end up with just a bunch of letters just like any other word. I think everyone refuses to think about why things are the way they are because they've been taught from a young age to not do so. And it's not popular to think of "bad" words as just another word. We swear as kids in order to be accepted and as adults we admonish the same behavior...in order to be accepted.
     
  7. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    Hear, hear from me too. My mother's point on the subject was that vulgar language indicated a lack of vocabulary, or a certain sludginess of thought process. It demonstrated things about the user that might or might not be true, but certainly made the impression as such. Also, re the hammer and the thumb: if a word is used constantly to reference a variety of situations and emotions, the word becomes meaningless. It loses its punch. There may be a time and place for vividly bare language, but if the time is all times, then there is no emphasis. It all just becomes sludge. Carol and Silence DoGood are right: the habit of self control and precision in language are virtues in themselves. And Lord knows teens are working on a lot of levels to become adults--they will try lots of things on for size, they will succeed at many, and they will have some real messes along the way too.

    Barbara Munsey, from South Riding.
     
  8. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    My questions still remain completely avoided and unanswered...
     
  9. Carol Al-Ajroush

    Carol Al-Ajroush New Member

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    Poultry,

    In answer to your question posted below, it's a matter of context. What image do you see when you hear someone say "$h*t" compared to when someone says "darn?" Under the scenario described, I understand why there was an outburst but I also come away with two different impressions.


    [/quote]
    That's one of the most insightful posts I've read.

    But I still don't see why one word is banned while another word with the same meaning is not. I understand what you mean about teaching your kids to not go nuts with profanity and lose control. But what's really the difference between someone hitting their thumb with a hammer and yelling, "sh-t!" versus someone yelling, "darn!"?

    When you distill a cuss word, you end up with just a bunch of letters just like any other word. I think everyone refuses to think about why things are the way they are because they've been taught from a young age to not do so. And it's not popular to think of "bad" words as just another word. We swear as kids in order to be accepted and as adults we admonish the same behavior...in order to be accepted.
    [/quote]
     
  10. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    brim's right--they're just words, people. We've been raised to not think very openly about it or question the concept of bad words.

    Again, I think it's silly to ban certain words.

    Remember "Smurfs"? They used the word "smurf" to replace just about any word in the English language. (It really limited their vocabulary and showed that they were very low-class.) Why didn't parents complain about it and why didn't it catch on? And the cartoon was was even intended for a young audience. I guess because "smurf" wasn't considered a "bad" word then it was okay to use and to hear.

    I think teaching restraint is fantastic. I can see why you wouldn't want your child to not throw a verbal fit when something bad happens, but I don't see why making some words worse than others really helps anything. I guess yelling "sh-t!" instead of "darn!" will offend people but then you have to wonder why they're offended in the first place. I'm not promoting "bad words" all the time, I'm just promoting thought on why it is considered worse than another word that means the same thing. No one has been able to give me a reason yet (other than their parents told them so).

    I'll openly admit that I, like some others here, get uneasy when I hear bad words. I can't instantly practice what I preach here ("legalize bad words") because I, too, am not secure enough to stand up against everything that society tells me is right/wrong. But I at least want to get to the bottom of things and figure out why "bad" words are bad while a word of the same meaning is okay.

    It'll take time, but I think hundreds of years from now we won't have the concept of bad words and acceptable words. A lot of things that were taboo for no good reason are common today--not just linguistically (for example, women can reveal their ankles now). Our posterity will look back at us and chuckle.
     
  11. Carol Al-Ajroush

    Carol Al-Ajroush New Member

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    And while we are at it....

    Reasons Why the English Language is Hard to Learn:

    -The bandage was wound around the wound.

    -The farm was used to produce produce.

    -The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.

    -We must polish the Polish furniture.

    -He could lead if he would get the lead out.

    -The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

    -Since there is not time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.

    -A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

    -When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.

    -I did not object to the object.

    -The insurance was invalid for an invalid.

    -There was a row among the oarsman about how to row.

    -They were too close to the door to close it.

    -The buck does funny things when the does are present.

    -A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.

    To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.

    -The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

    -After a number of injections, my jaw got number.

    -Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.

    -I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.

    -How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

    :D
     
  12. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    I'll admit that that latter makes me feel uneasy. But that's only because I've been taught to feel that way.

    I only want to question why I (and others) feel that way toward certain words. There's no reasonable explanation other than society has made us react differently to certain words even though they mean the same thing as another word. If you strip away everything that society tags onto certain words you're only left with a few letters that represent a word that contains some sort of meaning. The "bad" part of it is meaningless fluff.
     
  13. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    :)

    ...reminds me of the news story about a student who wrote a fake excuse that asked the principal to "please execute" him from school...
     
  14. Sunny

    Sunny Chief Advisor

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    If we do not have things that are taboo, then why should we stop at our ankles?;)
    I agree that although it is silly to declare a word "bad", all of these words are associated with strong emotions and they give a certain level to the context they are used in.
    And as far as accepting people using these words- I must say that I don't care if I hear them, but I do if my 3 year old does. She is a veritable parrot and will be chiming thelovely words to my in-laws and yes- I do care (at least a little!) about what they think of me.
    Furthermore, even if I didn't care if my little one sang her nursery rhymes like Andrew Dice Clay, her friends parents would. I want to teach her to speak like a lady, and like Carol said, there is a time and a place for certain conversation.
    Teens OR adults who cuss in the presence of my kids exhibit a lack of discretion, as well as respect.
     
  15. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    My point was that society tells us what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. There are no absolutes to what is right or wrong in our world (what's okay today wasn't necessarily okay hundreds of years ago), and the same goes for "bad" words. It's all about our social conditioning.

    If history shows us anything, things that are considered risque today are going to be more common in the future--whether we like it or not. But we're all going to accept it and not even think about it eventually because it'll be the norm.

    So I don't think the acceptance of "bad" words is too far out of the question. It's happening without us even knowing it.

    Not all of them. "sh-t" means poo. Yet we all go into shock when we hear the former because we've been trained to react that way.

    And as for the words that are associated with strong emotions (or inappropriate subject matter), making them un-bad has nothing to do with what they still stand for. We really have to be able to separate the actual, almost physical word itself from what it means. Going in the opposite direction, if we make "sex" a bad word, it doesn't mean that it's gonna reduce teenage pregnancies.

    I'm not advocating going around cussing everywhere. I think people are taking it that way because they don't like hearing that what they've been taught is <gasp> unfounded. I'm sure if "sh-t" was considered as acceptable as "poo", we'd all use it in regular speech without thinking twice about it (or getting offended by it, or thinking there's anything bad associated with the actual word itself).

    If you want to see my point, just set aside for a moment--in your mind--everything that society tells you about "bad" words and why they are bad. It's not easy to do and I'm sure not everyone will allow themselves to do it.
     
  16. Carol Al-Ajroush

    Carol Al-Ajroush New Member

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    My response is you feel or react the way you do to certain words due to the words definition - implied or otherwise. For example, darn has one definition in the dictionary and $h*t has another, each with its own specific connotation. Same thing if you hear death or happiness - I'm sure given their respective definitions create differing reactions.

    That's my two cents worth as a Broadlands armchair psychologist! :D

    And yes...that is a joke!! [8D]


     
  17. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

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    Actually, there are absolutes in our world. Some things are right and some things are wrong. To steal, murder, lie, cheat, commit adultery, etc. are wrong. If you live in a world with no absolutes, then you live in a world of chaos and relativism.

    I think you are overthinking and trying to intellectualize the whole notion of words not inherently being "bad." In the absolute, you are correct--no collection of letters is inherently bad. But WORDS always have a social context, and it's perfectly legitimate for society to declare some words and their meanings crude or inappropriate.

    As I said before, it is prudent and good for people to exercise control over their mouths--whether that means not cursing, lying or gossiping.
     
  18. poultry

    poultry New Member

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    Murder, for example, is acceptable in war. So murder being wrong isn't an absolute.

    And those classifications change from generation to generation and century to century. So you can't say that a particular word (not its meaning) is absolutely bad--it's what society tells us is bad or acceptable.

    I never argued against that point. In fact, I think it's a very good point.

    My question is simply why do we even have "bad" words? Is it so that we have something on the do-not-say list so we can use it to teach control? Is it so that some people can feel that they are of higher class than others? I'm not making any jabs against anyone. It's just that this thread has really gotten me thinking about why we have bad words at all.
     
  19. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    Poultry, Silence DoGood may be on to something there with overthinking. I've been finding it a bit humorous that your intellectual argument on the inherent neutrality of language (itself an extremely arguable position) is focused on words that are connected with excrement and coarse terminology for lovemaking.

    The S word, the F word, and various vulgar body part names are good old fashioned Anglo Saxon words, and hundreds of years ago were part of conversation. Hundreds of years ago. As you say, things evolve.

    Overuse of coarse language, if you feel that the feeling that using the words is not indicative of a lack of imagination, can also be compared to various other behaviors. What about nose picking? It is probably just as normal, natural and nearly universally practiced among humans as the grooming behavior that eats one another's bugs is to apes. Does that mean people are somehow less for not wanting to watch the behavior being exercised, since it is natural? What about flatulence? It is from the body, it is natural. Is one lessened by not finding it attractive?

    Extreme overuse of "bad" language is not only boring, it can in my mind be equated with lingual flatulence. Sorry if this dodges your question again. There was a thread Carol started some time ago that had to do with concepts and values, and may be what you're looking for in seeking to justify neutrality on any/all words. Carol, care to revive it?

    Barbara Munsey, from South Riding.
     
  20. Silence Dogood99

    Silence Dogood99 New Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by SilenceDogood99
    Actually, there are absolutes in our world. Some things are right and some things are wrong. To steal, murder, lie, cheat, commit adultery, etc. are wrong. If you live in a world with no absolutes, then you live in a world of chaos and relativism.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Murder, for example, is acceptable in war. So murder being wrong isn't an absolute.

    Two points. Murder is NOT acceptable in war. Killing is. Words have meanings, and killing is different from murder. There are rules of engagement in war. And murder is very different from killing.

    Even if I were to grant you that, would you still hold to the belief that there are no absolutes? I find that a foolish statement, but maybe you meant it in a different context.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But WORDS always have a social context, and it's perfectly legitimate for society to declare some words and their meanings crude or inappropriate.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    And those classifications change from generation to generation and century to century. So you can't say that a particular word (not its meaning) is absolutely bad--it's what society tells us is bad or acceptable.

    Never claimed that "words" have absolute meaning--it is simply the context society places on it...and it is legitimate for society to declare certain words and meanings and contexts crude or inappropriate...as it is with behaviors, etc.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As I said before, it is prudent and good for people to exercise control over their mouths--whether that means not cursing, lying or gossiping.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I never argued against that point. In fact, I think it's a very good point.
    We have agreement!! :D

    My question is simply why do we even have "bad" words? Is it so that we have something on the do-not-say list so we can use it to teach control? Is it so that some people can feel that they are of higher class than others? I'm not making any jabs against anyone. It's just that this thread has really gotten me thinking about why we have bad words at all.

    I think you are wayyyy overthinking this. I don't think there is some societal dictator out there looking to control people's speech, nor do I think we are trained to "fear" certain words. While some pretentious people may use bigger words (with a false stutter while stroking their beards!) to impress others, I think it's really quite simple.

    Certain words have a distinct meaning and context which make them crude or inappropriate (not inherently evil). I think we are focusing too much time on cussing...when the more heinous use of words is to gossip about others, speak falsely or negatively of others, lie to or manipulate people, etc.

    Okay, it's been a fun conversation but I think this has exhausted my interest...and if I continue to post on this subject, I may be tempted to let out a string of %^&^(*@& words!

    Besides, weather is too nice out! Enjoy spring!
    SD
     

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