So we can't call them CHRISTMAS trees anymore?

Um, you completely missed the point of my post, Jaxman. I absolutely agree with you on many, many points. And I would go one step further. I think even many Christians (not just non-Christians) are tired of being sullied by judgmental, dogmatic Christians and those who insist that everyone else live by their decrees.

My point was that many people also are very judgmental against Christians, so it works both ways.

But let's discuss this because I think it is critically important. What is the meaning of "intolerant"?" If someone believes that homosexual acts are morally wrong and states just that, does that make them "intolerant"?

 

I still believe that in this area, it was much more likely that Christians views were the reason Halloween was taken out of public schools than other religions. However, you are right that lots of people have a problem with Halloween. Here's an article on it:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/48/story_4828_1.html

My point was that someone was saying that taking Christmas out of Christmas trees would soon be followed by taking out Halloween from Halloween celebrations. I still don't know if they were joking or commenting on the fact that it's already done right here in Broadlands.

 

Does anyone want to explain how the "American Family Association" is appropriately named???? The gall of a group being offended by "Family Trees" at Christmastime who take the name "American Family Association" still astounds me. They certainly don't represent my family's values.

 

It's a name, Joy, why get so worked up over this?! Will you be equally "galled" at the American Civil Liberties Union's name? After all, they don't represent ALL Americans. Should they be renamed, "The Liberal-Americans-Who-Want-God-and-Religion-And-Traditional-American-Values-Taken-Out-of-The-Public-Square-Civil-Liberties-For-Suspected-Terrorists-and-Male-Pedophiles-Union? Ha ha. See, it works both ways.

I can respect the ACLU for the work they do even while I disagree with much of what they stand for. I suspect that perhaps your anger or disdain for the American Family Association--besides the fact that they overreact to most things--is that they are a conservative, Christian organization. And that's just as wrong as anything intolerant that they do.

 

There's gotta be a better gotcha straw man out there than the ACLU. The American "Civil Liberties" Union is an organization that advocates for civil liberties. For everyone. (See ACLU Sues for Anti-Gay Group That Pickets at Troops Burials.)
If I had to reasonably guess what the American Family Association was for without prior knowledge, I'd say they were either against being single or married without children, or for families, or both. The answer is none of the above, though.

I'll assume that your argument isn't that others do it, so it's ok. Is it that the American Family Association represents some families, so it's ok? I don't know the real number, but a quick check on the web (www.barna.org) says 7% of the country identify as Evangelical Christians. Why do they use a name that is so nebulous? Marketing. Same reason as Lowe's.

 

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. I think that they wouldn't have any problem with a Family Tree, per se. Create said item out of thin air for, say, some random day in August and they wouldn't bark. But take a Christmas Tree and rename it? Therein lies the rub.

 

I just wonder why you are "galled" at the name. It's a name. And they have every right to use that name. Just like any organization can. And you are proving my point--it's okay for some organizations to use names that don't represent everyone (does the ACLU or any other organization represent even a majority of its supposed constituents--does AARP speak for all seniors, does the NAACP speak for all black people?), but it's NOT okay if that organization is a conservative, Christian organization.

Are you saying it's not "okay" for the AFA to name their organization that way? Wow. That sounds kind of intolerant.

My assumption is that the AFA believes they stand for traditional American values that, at one time, a majority of American families would support. Split hairs however you wish, but on many issues they probably do represent a majority of American families (though many like mine don't like their reactionism and fear-based tactics).

You say above that "If I had to reasonably guess what the American Family Association was for without prior knowledge, I'd say they were either against being single or married without children, or for families, or both. The answer is none of the above, though."

How can you say that it's none of the above? That just shows your bias and true colors, Joy. Listen, I don't support or care about the AFA, but their mission is to defend traditional family values AS THEY SEE IT. That is their right and they are very upfront about it. This is just your own intolerance and bigotry masquerading as a disingenuous argument!

 

How about the National Organization for Women? They probably don't represent a majority of women.

 

Good one. I wonder if it's "okay" for them to use that name?

How about The Human Rights Campaign? You would think they were an organization supporting all of those who have had their human rights denied. Apparently not so. I wonder if that's okay.

 

Can any of you come up with a reason that does not use another misnamed organization as an example of why it is okay to misname this one?

If you are saying that these names are not being named to manipulate the public you are sadly sad. But there are degrees with which these organizations try to manipulate you.

The AFA IS an intolerant organization created to EXLUDE non-traditional families. Nothing you can say will change that. Supporting their goals is fine if you are intolerant like they are. Just admit you are intolerant and stop trying to call people who are against intolerance intolerant. It's pathetic. Blame your opponent of the things you are guilty of. Typical.

NOW is an organization that supports Women's issues. If you, as a woman, do no support their views it does not EXLUDE you from their goals. They fight for you, too.

Joy's point of the AFA's name is spot-on; whether you support them or not. The ACLU, who often goes too far for me, does not stray from their goals or name. They seek to protect ALL civil liberties. Just because you don't believe in civil liberties doesn't mean the organization is misnamed. THAT is intolerant.

Now, don't lump us in with you. We support your right to believe what you want. What we do not support is your blatant attempts to allow the civil liberties of some citizens, as long as they are not you, be denied because of a difference of beliefs.

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My last post will get deleted, but the truth hurts sometimes...

 

I hope this post stays up in its entirety. Because it says wayyyyyy more about you than anyone else, Jaxman. Wow.

Update: Unfortunately, the Admininstrators took down your comments (I do understand why). Had they not, everyone could have seen, to your shame, that you sound as bad as the AFA nuts. Interesting.

 

"Truth" can hurt sometimes, but unfortunately what you posted has little to do with truth. It has to do with you apparently having an axe to grind and making assertions and assumptions about others in this forum that are the complete opposite of truth.

Again, I am so glad you posted this. It only indicts you.

 

If I were a woman who believed that abortion was murder, then NOW would absolutley exclude me from their goals.

 

Excellent! We're on the same page! I would never suggest that we rename a menorah because of a difference of beliefs. Or a 9 pointed star. Or anything else.

I can't even figure out why we're arguing? According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the definition of 'tolerance' is as follows:

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

Live and let live. Practice, and let practice. Don't tell me that I need to change the way I do things because you don't like it and you feel excluded. Everyone is excluded from something. I don't like sushi, so the sushi joint up by Safeway doesn't cater to me. The horror!

 

Are you telling me that your original post that started all this was meant to show that Lowes was being tolerant to non-Christians for their ad? Then you truly are a good person. I also agree that anyone who got offended by it does not meet your definition of tolerant. I like how you brought it full circle. Very cool.

I never pegged your as a social liberal but God bless you!

BTW, what is the 9-pointed star a reference to? I'm not familiar with that particular symbol.

 

I think we should stop feeding the troll.

 

How does NOW exclude a pro-life person from their goals? You believe it is wrong to have an abortion and they support your right to decide that for yourself. They don't want to throw you in jail for your beliefs. They don't want to force you to abort a fetus if you want to keep it.

If their goal is to make sure you can act according to your own personal beliefs then they most certainly do NOT exclude you. It supports you fully. And it asks that you tolerate the beliefs of other people as you would have them tolerate yours.

It all comes back to tolerance. Do you respect views different from your own? Go back and look at all the organization you support and ask this question of each of them. Also, ask if your these organizations attempt to change laws to exclude or include. Do they seek to take away rights or give rights?

If you take a step back it is very easy to see whether a belief or action is tolerant or intolerant. I am not tolerant of everything in belief but I try to be in action. Every conflict from the beginning of time stems from intolerance. Everyone says they are tolerant but how many of us live that definition day to day?

Some day your beliefs may not be so mainstream and you will pray that people are as tolerant of you as you were of them.

 

We don't want you to starve, chick.

The question about the 9-point star is a real one. I'll look it up myself, though, if you are intolerant of questions.

 

Congratulations! You have now surpassed Gryphon in your ability to twist logic. Wow.