Four Way Stop Rules?

I was almost in an accident this morning pulling away from a four-way stop. I was stopped at the intersection, with my turn to proceed next. A vehicle at the intersection to my right arrived just as the previous car was clearing the intersection, stopped, and pulled in front of me as I was starting to leave the intersection. In the ensuing discussion between us at the following intersection, the other driver emphatically believed that traffic at 4 way stops moves in an "alternating" fashion; i.e., all east and west traffic crosses, then all north and south traffic, etc. I have taken driving tests in four different states, all of which state in their Driver Manual that at a four way stop, the first driver to arrive is the first to proceed, and so on, unless two cars arrive at the same time, in which case the car to the right has the right of way. I looked at the Virginia Driver Manual on the web, and was surprised to see what that they say:

“At some intersections you’ll find a plaque beneath the stop sign that says “All Way” or “4 Way.” At these intersections all vehicles on all roads leading in to the intersection must stop. The driver on the left must yield to the driver on the right.”

This seems flat our wrong, and may explain the confusion at the new 4 way stops that have been installed in the area. I'd like to gauge the understaning of people on the forum as to what rules they understand to be applicable at a four way stop, and maybe get an attorney or law enforcement official to check state statutes and clarify the issue.

If there are drivers operating under differing understandings of the law, it may explain some of the four-way confusion we've seen in the area.

 

I think that the two opposing lanes should go at the same time, i.e. the north and south bound people go at the same time, then the east and west bound people go. It's more efficient this way...if the north bound vehicle is crossing, then theres no way the east or west bound vehicles can possibly go at that that same time since there is a car in the intersection, right? So why should the person going south have to sit there and wait as one person crosses but they have a clear shot going the opposite direction with no worries that the east/west cars will pull in front of them. This way two people are able to cross at the same time rather than just one. This has been my experience as the general rule at the 4-ways around here.

 

I agree with brim. If done properly, the other drivers are not inconvenienced because they would have had to wait anyway.

 

I agree as well. And, clearly, it would seem to me that cars making a right hand turn should be able to go whenever it is clear (in particular, they should go when there is a car to the right turning left and "setting the pick" against traffic coming from any other direction.

 

I still don't understand why roundabouts are not more common around here. These 4-way intersections that we are talking about seem perfectly suited for them. They work great in the UK to keep traffic moving. Even DC uses them in some major intersections (e.g., 23rd & K).

 

That works in theory but not in the real world. When does the traffic stop to allow the perpendicular traffic to go? What if someone is turning left? What about pedestrians? The way I understood the initial post was a driver failed to stop and "piggybacked' on the first vehicles rotation. That is not they way it's supposed to work. According to the traffic laws all vehicles must come to a complete stop before proceeding. Is it really so hard to take an extra 2 seconds to be courteous? I agree these intersections are screwed up and traffic light installations need to be fast tracked but drivers also need to be more patient and courteous to one another.

 

The initial driver did indeed come to a complete stop. The issue is -- who's turn is it? I felt is was my turn to go since I had arrived first, and all other cars that had arrived at the stop sign before me had proceeded through the intersection. The other driver felt that it was her turn to go, since the car opposite her was just clearing the intersection.

In an informal poll at work, everyone so far has agreed with the "whoever got there first" interpretation. Which ever way the law turns out to be, it's a little frighteneing that there are a lot of us with differing interpretations.

 

I agree with the whoever gets there first rule, unless two people arrive at the same time then yield to the person on your right. Although to me this is a strange rule because if there was a roundabout you would yield to the person on your left.

jaeris

 

I agree with 'whoever got there first' unless there are four people at the intersection, then my first post applies.

 

I've had a few near-accidents caused because I was following the state rule (ie yield to the car on the right) while others were following their own theory (ie north-south then east-west). It doesn't matter if you personally think it makes more sense. Everybody needs follow one method - the one in the manual - and wait their turn. Now to be safe I feel like I need to wait extra long, see who else thinks it's their turn to go, and then cautiously venture out. So I get honked at!

 

So the DMV manual states that the law does not give the right-of-way to anyone, it just states who should yield. - I operate on the FIFO method unless I arrive at the same time, then I yield to the driver on the right (per the DMV "manual"). If I happen to have my windows down, I will actually point and motion at a driver to go when it is their turn, just to eliminate uncertainty.

Yielding in Virgina I think is a mystery to many drivers - I see this every morning when I get off the greenway onto 28 South. I encounter the drivers coming from 267 westbound who are getting off the 28 South ramp. The 267 west drivers have the yield sign but that doesn't seem to stop them from screaming "Banzai" and just cutting off the greenway people. I know it's painful, but you may have to stop at a yield sign.

I'm closing in on 7 years in Virgina, and here is my unscientific observation of adherence to traffic laws:

Traffic laws that drivers in Virginia adhere to very well:

1) Yielding the right-of-way to emergency vehicles. People will slow down, get right, pull off the road. I've seen people look like they are going to drive their vehicle into a ditch to get out of the way...Anyway, better than I have observed in other states.
2) Yielding/being respectful of funerals - same as above. Good job!

Traffic laws that drivers in Virginia ignore/don't believe in/ don't know about/ etc.

1)Yield signs - see rant about Greenway/267west traffic above.
2)Headlights on during inclement weather - either they don't have their lights on or feel that their daytime running lights are sufficent. They aren't - and according to the VA traffic law, DRL do not constitute having your headlights on. I know I am expecting a lot, that you remember to put your lights on and then remember to turn them off. I know, it's crazy. I'm just demanding like that.
3)Signaling - I know, I know, you may have to put down your Venti Extra Mocha Half Caff Skim Latte w/choc shavings to do this. Hand signals are optional.
4)Lane usage/lane etiquette - this is really an issue for the people who didn't plan ahead/pay attention and the people that planned way too early... If the big white arrow points straight, THAT'S A HINT. It doesn't mean that just cause your weren't paying attention, you get to paint your own arrow to make a left. Suck it up, go straight, and make a u-turn. Consider it a penalty - wal-mart or wherever you are going will still be there. Get crazy and try and make a legal u-turn - legal as in "safe". As for lane etiquette, try and stay out of the left lane if you aren't planning on going faster than traffic in the other lanes. Don't try to be a speed enforcer, leave that to Ponch from CHiPs. If you need to be in the left lane to make a turn, try and not do it 7 miles in advance. Then again, don't be that person that slams on the brakes in the center lane to get left or right at the last moment. I guess this is getting picky now...

No more for now, just grateful that Adelphia was kind enough to fix the broken cable modems that were out for 5 days. I'll save that rant for another post...

 

Directly from the Virginia Driver's Manual:

Right-of-Way

When two vehicles approach an intersection not controlled by traffic lights or signs or when two vehicles approach an intersection controlled by four stop signs, neither vehicle has the right-of-way. Virginia law states that when two or more vehicles approach an intersection from different directions at the same time, the driver on the LEFT must yield to the driver on the right.

Pretty simple stuff. For drivers who don't think these rules apply to them, all it takes is a "failure to yield" citation to get the wake up call. Especially after an accident. Good news is we should have one fewer 4-way (at Waxpool/Claiborne) sometime in the next 45 days as the light should be installed.

 

[Quote: Honestly if you read into this.. all this means is the 'turns' should go circular around an intersection.. which we know isn't the most efficent way and would never 'survive' in the real world.]

Steve - that's exactly what the DMV is saying, that you are supposed to take turns in a circular pattern. It's pretty clear when you line up at rush hour, when you finally get to the stop sign, that someone else is taking their turn. You can easily see when the person to your right goes, and then it's your turn.

It's pretty rare for four cars to arrive and stop at the same time but then somebody does have to just decide to go first.

But the problem posed by the Florida native was not about that rare event, it was about the people who sneak across because the person opposite them is taking their turn, which throws off the circular pattern that everyone's supposed to be following. Whose turn is it if two cars have just gone?

Those of you who don't like the DMV rule, could you at least follow it when you're lined up with multiple cars waiting at all four stop signs? It really would help!

 

Four cars at an intersection is not rare at all, you must not get out on Waxpool in the mornings or the evening.

I don't care what the law says, if the guy across from me is going and the people on either side of me have to wait anyhow, then I'm going...no sense wasting time and causing a longer backup during rish hour(s). Sometimes the law is asinine, like these other Virginia laws which I'm sure everyone abides by:

- Citizens must honk their horn while passing other cars
- Children are not to go trick-or-treating on Halloween
- It is illegal to tickle women
- It is illegal to have sex with the lights on and one may not have sex in any position other than missionary.
- If one is not married, it is illegal for him to have sexual relations.

 

Brim - What if the person to your right is turning right ?

jaeris

 

Then they go when the other two cars have cleared the intersection, since it would be thier's and the car opposite them turn to go.

 

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I meant if *only* four cars drive simultaneously up and simultaneously stop, then the question was raised are they all supposed to remain stopped indefinitely because there is no one on their right to go? In that case the rule is confusing, and someone has to just decide to go first.

As you point out, and I think I mentioned too, there are lots and lots of cars lined up in the mornings and evenings. They can easily see who's going and so the question raised above does not apply.

I think the confusion, near accidents, and irritation about the 4-way stops makes it evident that one rule needs to be followed. It may not be everyone's favorite rule, but it creates order where there is potential chaos.

 

It's painfully obvious after reading this thread why there are so many accidents.