Broadlands Hospital

Plug in "flex building" instead of hospital.. did they get "your" approval or anyone in your community before building?

Didn't think so.

To be honest, I am very perplexed to know why someone in "your business" that supposedly knows everything and everyone () thinks the the public has soooooooo much say in what developers/land owners can do with their property. Specifically in this case.

 

A few interesting facts. I know we are close to the airport but we don't have aircrafts landing a few hundred feet from our homes now, if the hopital is built some of us will.


2:28 PM [PST] on Fri. Jan. 11, 2008

EMS Helicopter crash rate highest in aviation industry
The rate of FATAL CRASHES in helicopter Emergency Medical Services (EMS) operations is higher than the rate for all other categories of aviation. There are 1.8 fatal crashes per 100,000 hours of helicopter EMS flight, compared with 1.3 fatal crashes per 100,000 hours of general aviation flight. http://www.alea.org/public/safety/files/2006_EMS_Accident_Study.pdf

Compare Helicopter NOISE to Everyday Sound:
[Each 10-decibel increase in sound level is perceived as approximately a doubling of loudness.]

Sound
Decibel Level

Rustling Leaves
20 dB

Whispering
25 dB

Library
30 dB


40 dB

Average Home
50 dB

Normal conversation
60 dB

Telephone ring
65 dB

Idling motorcycle
70 dB

Busy Traffic
75 dB

Accelerating motorcycle
80 dB

Electric drill, weed whacker at 6 feet
85 dB

Screaming Child
85 dB


95 dB

Jack Hammer
100 dB

Helicopter
105 dB













Normal speech at 3-5 feet.



Idling motorcycle sounds twice as loud as normal conversation, because 10 dBs louder.

Motorcycle at full throttle sounds twice as loud as at idle, because 10 dBs louder.

This is the predicted noise level that nearby residents will hear at night with windows closed. Imagine sleeping through the noise of an electric drill at the foot of your bed.



Jackhammer another doubling of the noise level.
Helicopter at 100 feet is 50% louder than a jackhammer.


Helicopter Noise

Noise from the large twin-engine medical transport helicopters in a metropolitan area is a serious problem. It will rattle windows and knock pictures off the wall, because there is a strong low and subsonic frequency component to this type of noise.



Structural Vibration is created by helicopter noise.

A helicopter produces long-wave infrasound that is NOT blocked by walls and windows, acoustic absorbers or atmosphere to the same degree as audible sound. The vibration and rattle induced in buildings by helicopters caused human test subjects a level of “annoyance” equivalent to control noise that was 20 dB higher. See: FAA Aviation Noise Effects, p. 70. http://www.nonoise.org/library/ane/ane.htm

Effect of Aircraft Noise on Property Values

Many studies have tried to establish the impact on land values that results from overhead aircraft noise. Learn more about the effects of air traffic noise on property values.
Property Values will drop significantly
The mantra of real estate professionals is "location, location, location" . No one willingly chooses to buy a home under a flight path, unless they are enticed by a low price for the property.

Real estate law requires sellers to reveal noise and other nuisance factors prior to sale, using a Real Estate Transfer Disclosure Statement. This allows informed buyers to look elsewhere, or to lower their offer. It follows that home values will be substantially lower near a hospital helipad with "up to 3 flights a day", as predicted by SF General in the Helipad Initial Study.

STUDIES MEASURE AIRPORT IMPACT

In 1994, the consulting firm of Booz-Allen & Hamilton, Inc. was commissioned by the Federal Aviation Administration to prepare a study entitled, The Effect of Airport Noise on Housing Values: A Summary Report. The study developed a methodology for evaluating the impact of noise on housing values by comparing market prices in similar neighborhoods that differed only in the level of airport related noise. The study found that the effect of noise on prices was highest in moderately priced and expensive neighborhoods. For two moderately priced "paired" neighborhoods north of LAX, the study found "an average 18.6 percent higher property value in the quiet neighborhood, or 1.33 percent per dB of additional quiet."

A 1996 study, funded by a grant from the Legislature of the State of Washington, used somewhat similar methodology and found that the proposed expansion of Seattle-Tacoma Airport would cost five nearby cities $500 million in property values and $22 million in real-estate tax revenue. The study of single family homes in "very good" condition, with "three or more bedrooms and two or more baths" and "excluding the most expensive and inexpensive units to provide more representative comparisons" found that "a housing unit in the immediate vicinity of the airport would sell for 10.1 percent more-- if it were located elsewhere."

The study also concluded that, "all other things remaining equal, the value of a house and lot increases by about 3.4% for every quarter of a mile the house is farther away from being directly underneath the flight track of departing/approaching jet aircraft".

In 1997, Randall Bell, MAI, Certified General Real Estate Appraiser, Licensed Real Estate Broker and instructor for the Appraisal Institute, provided the results of his own professional analysis to the Orange County Board of Supervisors. After examining 190 sales comparables over the previous six months, in communities near LAX, John Wayne airport and Ontario Airport, Mr. Bell found a diminution in value due to airports averaging 27.4 percent.

The noise and danger of low-flying helicopter landings and departures over San Francisco's Mission District and Protrero Hill, will reverse significant improvements in these neighborhoods that has occurred in the last 10 years. In addition, lower prices for home sales will reduce real-estate tax revenues to the city of San Francisco. This loss will far outweigh the expected increase in revenue to the Hospital generated by the insured patients flown in by helicopter from surrounding counties.

 

What do you say if the property values rise instead? Oops, I didn't know what I was talking about?

 

Until you learn the process there is no way I can answer your off the wall statement. jeez T8 the public has an lot of impact and especially HOA's except your hoa is selling it's residents especially the neighbors close to this hospital down the river and a bill of goods. I will say it again and again. This hospital in a poll did not have public support and it was voted down by the last bos.

There are only a few loud fanatics in favor of it and it's public support is less now then it was before that is why they are afraid to do another poll. This site is not large enough to buffer the neighbors as is correctly and certainly is not large enough for any expansion down the road as they will certainly most try and have in fact said they might in your broadlands newsletter.

This hospital is going to get far more scrutiny then it did last go round. There is going to be another hospital anyway so there is not going to be any future job loss or tax loss or lack of medical care in Loudoun county. and it is going to be built on an large enough site with no opposition and it is already before the bos for the first phase.

T8 I have been in the building development business all my life and with statements like you just said you have not even seen the much in how much influence the public can have on development. Did we not just get rid of a pro growth board and voted in a no growth board.

I have watched the new bos meetings on tv somewhat and I can tell you we elected the right person in our district and Mr Miller scrutinizes everything what I can see down to the minutia. I am very impressed and he will scrutinize I am sure this hospital as it has never been scrutinized before. I really believe he will, so no matter how he votes on this hospital eventually, at least we have a supervisor that will do his homework on this extremely controversial hospital.

Lee j

 

softball chick,

you have been bamboozled by the Inova, crack, community relations department headed up by Donna.

There is no helicopter landing pad, regardless of the efforts of Donna to make you think there is.

And she says they ain't fear mongering. Can you say "no integrity". There are other examples flying around as well.

 

Softballchick, you bring up three interesting points. Let's take them one at a time:

1. Higher rate of EMS Helicopter crashes. My hunch is that this is a dubious statistic that falls under the category of misleading and borderline fear-mongering for a few reasons. One, EMS missions are by nature more dangerous. In order to rescue people, they have to go into more risky situations. The key point for homeowners would be this: what is the crash rate at the actually home base landing point (i.e. at the hospital itself)? My hunch is that most of the crashes are at the point of the accident or incident. Also, if the helicopters crash on landing, that's going to be near a helipad away from homes. This dog doesn't hunt.

2. Helicopter Noise. This is a legitimate and serious point. This is a reason why I would oppose the hospital because this could interfere with sleep and general enjoyment of life.

3. Effect of Airport on Home Values. Again, I think this is irrelevant. This article concerns the effect of airplane traffic (hundreds of flights per day?!) on property values. BRMC isn't opening a training center for helicopter pilots, are they?

Helicopter noise is a serious consideration. And if it were going to be bad enough, it would be enough for me to adamantly oppose the hospital. But don't throw in the other arguments because they are canards.

 

Lee says that people who want the hospital (again, for the record, Lee, I am neutral on this) are "fanatics." So if you have a different point of view than him, you are a fanatic. It couldn't be that you just see a need for a hospital close by and think new jobs in the community would be beneficial. Or maybe you own a restaurant in Broadlands and think your business would grow with hundreds of new potential customers coming by your shop every day. Too bad, you are a fanatic. If you were a big-time architect, you'd know better.

I think the pro-hospital people have acknowledged there are legitimate issues for opposing it: more traffic, noise, proximity to residential, etc. But here are three examples of subtle and not-so-subtle fear-mongering from the anti-hospital side.

1. Courtesy of Lee: We are going to have criminals roaming our neighborhoods because they all congregate at hospitals on the weekends.

2. Couresty of Brooks: We are going to have those awful mental patients roaming our streets in their bathrobes, endangering our kids.

3. Now we are going to have helicopters crashing into homes!

 

Silence you certainly are funny how you twist until it fits your ideals.

Bottom line, I welcome this debate and going through the review process again.

Facts are, the majority of the people voted no to it in an poll the last time

And it was voted down by the last very pro growth board.

And this is one of longest thread ever

The internet will play a much bigger role this go around then it ever did before.

Win win developments rarely if ever have this much opposition if they are a real good neighbor development.

If people wanted to buy next to a hospital they would of bought that home next to an already existing hospital.

And Lee, thats me is tough enough to never wear down on this topic because It is here where we draw the line finally on good neighbor development vs bad neighbor development.

 

Show me the twist, sir, i just use your own words! And there are a lot of them! I have said repeatedly I respect your passion for good neighbor development. In fact, I may ultimately come down on your side.

But what I object to are assinine arguments, labeling those who disagree "fanatics" and "fools", and your condescension.

Why are you so enamored of opinion polls? People are wrong all the time. After all, people voted for your idol George Bush twice! What about the rights of property owners?

So would you be for this site if the hospital people met with you and agreed to build in a more neighbor-friendly way? Is that the only think you oppose?

 

Lets discuss property values, and what determines them.

The value of a home is almost entirely (up to 90%) determined supply and demand, and not by size or quality of construction.

Now, lets take home x in a neighborhood:

• In a neutral setting, 50 people would be interested in purchasing the home.
• Add a buffer (golf course, parkland, etc) 5 more people would be interested.
• Add a hospital on adjacent property 5 fewer people would be interested.

Upon what am I basing this? In all of the posts regarding the potential hospital, NOT ONE PERSON SAID THAT THEY WOULD PREFER TO LIVE NEXT DOOR TO THE HOSPITAL.

 

Valid point to an extent, but you are leaving out a few things:
1. What if the hospital brought in people with high paying jobs who may want to live near the hospital? This could increase demand.

2. How much of a built-in buffer was already included in the value of the property to begin with? Did people who bought these homes already get a discount based on the fact that a commercial business of some kind was going going to be built there?

3. What is the delta for the reduction in property value for a hospital versus a business park?

4. What if having a hospital in the neighborhood had a net positive effect on home prices overall? How many homes are affected by the hospital?

5. You are assuming there aren't people who don't mind living there based on some posts on a forum. There are people who live across from the Safeway plaza, who live on the dragstrip Claiborne Parkway. Maybe it's an affordable alternative since it would be discounted.

6. You are bringing your own bias. I would NOT want to live near a golf course. I don't like golf balls zinging into my yard.

But I do think you have some legitimate points. Just needs context.

 

How about this Silence people pay a premium for an golf course lot and I never heard of an premium for an hospital lot.

Further my international group of architect buddies so far have never heard of an situation like this. With these exact set of parameters. But they will keep an eye out for something like this.

Nobody has ever seen an brand new hospital ever built in the middle of new single family homes that were there first. At least nobody can recall anything like this.


Lee j

 

Hey pot, the kettle is calling.

 

Thanks baywatch I take that as an compliment coming from you

 

So clearly the impact to the surrounding area from doing such should be well understood.

 

Lee Iam honestly beginning to think you have no idea where this site is.

The site is bordered by four lanes of major "Greenway" highway; soon to be four lanes on Belmont Ridge Road (that the hospital hopefully will build,. they offered last time); and four lanes on Broadlands Blvd. The fourth side is the school admin building.

How in the hell can this site be defined as being in the "middle of new single family homes"?

You must be getting your "FACTS" from Inova's "community relations department"

 

Oh by the way, that opinion poll...it came from the same group that wants you to think there is a helicopter landing pad invading our environs.

People need to look at the real dynamic that is happening. It has nothing to do with the location. It has to do with corporate greed and paranoia from Inova Loudoun Hospital.

Folks wake up we are looking at the opportunity to attract a fortune 100 company into Loudoun County!!!!!

 

There is no helicopter??

 

softballchick I like afgm and I have walked the site. My motivation is strictly from we are starting to put too many incompatible developments in the wrong places. I am looking at the bigger picture allow this here and whats next.

The helipad was removed but they still kept the pad site for it and again it is a trick to get their claws into this piece of property just like the reserved land, once they get what they want nothing is going to stop them from expanding. They even have said that in your newsletter they won't discount anything in the future for the reserved land. Yes I would like to see another hospital just where one would have less effect on the existing community. Mark my words I have never seen an hospital NOT expand and keep on expanding. They even left that door open in your newsletter.

afgm I am not against an hospital I am against bad neighbor developments. The farms is one of the first and still one of the nicest pud's and I know you are proud of your neighborhood. We have gone backwards not forward in keeping Loudoun staying beautiful.

We have done an horrible job in transitioning the different types of uses lately. That should be a crime when you start with a clean state as we did here in loudoun.

Afgm it is also a private company now

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119966964943671279.html

 

Lee-
The Broadlands HOA has not issued an opinion for or against the hospital since 2004, when that Board supported it.
And you are correct, public input is important on a Special Exception vote, however an HOA's input is not as important as individual residents.