Discussion in 'Broadlands Community Issues' started by chris, Apr 25, 2004.
Logic?!!?! Are you trying to take the fun away???
doberman, I appreciate your views and welcome you to this forum. One of the many reasons that I oppose HCA/HOA's attempt to build redudant hospital in our community is founded in logic. The logic that we don't need a duplicative hospital right down the road from another brand new facility... The logic that HCA has a track record of stealing from taxpayers, hard-working families, and senior citizens -- all actions that the HOA has defended with statement like "it didn't happen in Virginia (that we know about)" and "that happened five minutes ago, and HCA is changed." Well, HCA may have changed its name, but not its business philosophy. The same people are even still in charge!
Also, I'm as big of fan of Gene Roddenberry as any good sci-fi fan, but I don't believe that emotion is without its place in society. We all have emotional reactions. One of my emotional reactions is to be disgusted by theft, and that is exactly the reaction that I have when I hear the letters H-C-A.
*** WARNING WARNING WARNING ***
The previous post on this thread contains, in a pattern similar to many of those by this member, statements which do not resemble the truth.
"The same people" ARE NOT "still in charge!" See the following:
Here is an excerpt (emphasis added): "Richard Scott  was ousted in 1997 after federal investigators raided 19 hospitals and offices. The board brought back Frist and Bovender to restore the company's luster. They fired executives and instituted ethics guidelines, among other changes."
I am not an HCA cheerleader -- I don't know enough FACTS about what they have done to correct their crimes in order to make an informed decision about whether or not to support them. I just think it is important to set the record straight when a poster provides "innacurate" information on these forums (chris, please don't ignore this paragraph in your inevitable reply).
I think that posts like the previous one illustrate doberman's point nicely: that logic and emotion don't mix. It is easy to get so wrapped up in emotion that LOGIC and/or FACTS get set aside in order to make a point.
Dear pats_fan: You appear to be the victim of HCA's spinning of reality (you may just be gullible and prone to believing in whatever tripe HCA feeds you) or you are incapable of spreading anything but lies. I hope that this is a case of the former rather than the letter. So, let me show you the light before HCA completes its indoctrination of you...
The first step in the de-bunking of the lies is to go to HCA's own website at http://www.hcahealthcare.com/ -- there you will see that the organization was founded by Dr. Thomas Frist, Sr. (yes, related to the Frist in the Senate). Who's currently the the Chairman of HCA's board??? Why, it's the very same Dr. Frist, Sr. Also, you incorrectly state that the healthcare fraud did not occur when the current leadership was in place. Again, you either have been horribly dupped or are amazingly willing to lie. Dr. Frist, Sr. resumed his Chairman position in 1997. HCA was still committing fraud in 1999 -- for proof, see the Department of Justice's website at http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2000/December/696civcrm.htm (read about HCA's collusion with Olsten Corporation).
To get at even more of the truth, browse over to HCA’s own Corporate Governance page -- there you will see several of HCA's Directors who have been with the company since the late 1980s and early 1990s. That was WAY BEFORE HCA settled the LARGEST HEALTHCARE FRAUD CASE IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY!
So, please do not spread any more of the mis-information that HCA has fed you. We have enough to deal with when it comes straight from HCA and through the HOA in the monthly newsletter.
Dear Pats_fan: I hope that this helps to set the record straight for the ENTIRE Broadlands community. I would hate to see other members of this community fall victim of HCA's lies and mis-deeds as you clearly have.
You're right about one thing. The spin in the HOA newsletter is terribly biased.
Thanks for the reply, chris. It is refreshing to see you provide factual support for your claims for a change.
All that I did in my post was cite a news article and quote an excerpt. I made no allegations, I just pointed out the fact of the article and that it directly refutes your original baseless allegation. For this, I am called a liar (or stupid in the alternative).
Call me what you will, but the FACT remains that several executives (including the President and CEO) were fired and replaced as a result of the scandal, and ethics guidelines were instituted. Unless the Tennessean was lying (are you alleging this???), the article would seem to contradict your statements that "HCA may have changed its name, but not its business philosophy" and that "[t]he same people are even still in charge!"
I will admit that some of the same people may still be officers and/or on the board, but I don't believe those were the ones that were indicted for fraud. I'm not going to argue these points. My original point was that your original EMOTIONALLY charged allegation was FACTUALLY inaccurate.
But, again, congrats for providing FACTUAL support for your post. Although it doesn't support your original allegation, it does approach the level of what some might call constructive.
It is refreshing to see you admit your mistakes. You INCORRECTLY stated "The same people ARE NOT still in charge..." That is WRONG and is either an intentional LIE or evidence that HCA has duped you. Some of the people who were in charge of HCA during the fraud years are STILL running the place. HCA's own website states as much. So, which is it -- were you lying or just being duped into being HCA's pawn?
Spreading mis-information is not constructive. So if you state "The same people ARE NOT still in charge" while they actually are, you are doing a dis-service to this entire community (and a service to HCA). If that is your intent, please keep on doing what you are doing, but know that we will all know what your intentions are.
Of course I admit my mistakes. That is what reasonable and civilized people do.
That is why it is not surprising that you continue to refuse to admit your own mistakes/misstatements/exaggerations/etc...
If I ever have made an inaccurate statement in these forums, I will gladly retract it.
I don't think we're ready for 352 more posts.
Again, if I ever have made an inaccurate statement, I will gladly retract it.
Back to the topic, though, let's talk about the facts of HCA's fraud... The details of HCA's guilty plea, which includes fraudulent activities that happened with HCA's current leadership as well as investigations right here in Virginia, is available at http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2000/December/696civcrm.htm
Yes, some of the people are still in charge. But not everyone was guilty or party to the fraud. Or do you automatically associate "evil and vile" with ALL HCA employees?
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of those in charge of an organization to ensur that it acts ethically. HCA leadership did not do that. That same leadership, as you admitted T8erman, is still in charge. So, the same people who committed the fraudulent activities or who allowed the practices to go on would be in charge of the hospital in the Broadlands.
Separate names with a comma.